Editorial
Game Of Forks
N+∞
I raise my coffee mug and take a small sip. There's a forkless Marin El Roy laying on the floor of my small shop & laundry room. With me on the patio, there's a forkless We Are One Arrival mounted in my 25-year-old Park folding stand. My second thought is, Dustin Adams is going to kill me.
Not that I know the King of Kamloopsian Composites beyond saying hello, but by reputation he's passionate and protective of his two-wheeled progeny. My first thought? When you boil it down, the highly adaptable Arrival series has some parallels to an expensive hardtail frame.
Shocks and linkages are all laid out. I'm working on a review comparing the A130, A150, and A170 Arrival setups on the same frame.
For folks with an A150 or A170 planning to buy A130 links, be aware that they're thinner and require shorter Trunnion mounting bolts.
Splitting crown races helps speed up swaps, but in a perfect world, I think my bikes would have the same headset bearings as well.
A steerer tube that's cut long for one bike can end up being just right on another. Something to consider beyond being able to adjust stem height.
That's not a dig on the Arrival's dual-link rear suspension system but rather my take on the various characters the bike can play. In the same vein as running my Marin with fork travel ranging from 140mm to 170mm,* with every centimeter delivering a very different personality, an A130, and A170 are the same frame but different animals.
While this conversation relates to examining at the Arrival in its 130mm, 152mm, and 170mm guises - which I'll call A130, A150, A170, and "Darrivco"** from here forward - this is not a review per se. The Arrival is simply the vehicle I'm using right now that's inspired the thinking herein.
*More about voiding warranties later.
**the A130 over-forked
Everything is in its natural state. Price of entry aside, I think the A170 could make any All Mountain to Enduro rider very happy. Nothing against the value of the Kamloops-made bike - just noting that ownership requires a substantial outlay of cash.
The A130, both with a 140mm Mattoc and over-forked in Darrivco mode, has blown away my every expectation. I figured it would just be an A150 but more intense and it's proven to be a different bike. More in my future review.
This concept could be applied to the Guerilla Gravity lineup or the Rocky Mountain Instinct/Altitude. Like the Arrival, various travel configurations share the same frame members. It can also be applied on a less grand scale to bikes like the Banshee Titan that work well with a wide range of fork travel.
Most importantly, in my own case, it can be applied to many modern hardtail frames like the Kona Honzo ST & ESD or Chromag Rootdown & Stylus that work very well over-forked and even under-forked.
I realize it's a privilege to be able to afford to purchase and maintain two mountain bicycles but for folks who need to ride, investing in a maximally inter-compatible hardtail frame can prevent weeks of downtime in peak season.
With all the fork swapping going on, having a seat post that allows for easy and independently adjusting saddle tilt and position is a nice feature.
I'm reviewing a 25mm setback 9Point8 Fall Line dropper on my El Roy and the We Are One has the even quicker Reverb AXS head unit.
Inter-compatibility
The true beauty of the second bike being a hardtail is that it can happily manage a huge range of fork travel. In my example, I've tasked my El Roy with wearing the Manitou Mattoc Pro I've run on the A130, the RockShox Lyrik Ultimate I've run on the A150 and Darrivco, and the Zeb Ultimate off of the A170 build.
Aside from being the bikes I have on hand, the El Roy and Arrival don't make a fantastic pairing. Their signs simply do not match. To pull off maximum intercompatibility, both bikes should share hub size standards, wheel sizes, seat post diameters, and headset sizes at least. External rear brake routing is a nice, but rare, feature in terms of easy swaps without having to cut lines and buy fittings. You can however make certain the brake lines are long enough for fork and frame swapping.
Why does it matter to me if the Arrival uses Boost-148 or Super Boost-157 since We Are One supplied the wheels with this tester? I'd love to be able to throw on one of my 27" rear wheels. If this was my bike, it would be mulleted in all forms.
The Arrival isn't the worst bike I've swapped a rear brake on, but it would still be in an outside lane in the finals. I'd love to see some tasteful external routing in the name of swapability. Polished links, a la WR1's DH prototype, would look sweet too.
Warranty Stuff
Every brand is different, so it‘s impossible to make blanket statements about how over-forking affects warranty. Most companies seem to recommend +/- one centimeter of travel to preserve handling and suspension balance and, in some cases, like my El Roy this range is stated to affect the warranty.
The Arrival is an extra interesting case then. We Are One spec their A130 with a 140mm fork, their A150 with a 160mm fork, and the A170 with a 170mm fork. But, they allow up to a 190mm fork on the A170 and I know a few folks who ran 170mm forks on their A150 before picking up A170 links. I think it's fair to say it's a wild west fork situation in Arrival land.
The A130 is meant to be run with a 140mm fork. I've been loving it with a 160mm fork, but no worries.
Sharing the same frame as the A170, anything up to the maximum 190mm single crown is probably fair play.
My El Roy is designed around a 140mm fork (551mm axle-to-crown) and the warranty covers over-forking a maximum of +1cm of fork travel. I'm not worried about running a 170mm fork on the beast that is the "Marinster Truck," but I also regularly check my bikes for cracks going back to a few ugly failures I had years ago.
I'm certain if you asked Marin about the Doctahawk treatment, they'd recommend against it, but chances are if you're reading this you're an adult who can make, and should take responsibility for, your own decisions.
My Marinster Truck (Marin El Roy) is meant to be run with a 140mm fork. Marin says that bumping it up one centimeter is no worry. Shown here dual 29", I've been loving it mulleted.
El Roy's differently fun with the 170mm Zeb installed. Not as well-rounded, certainly. But I'm still smiling all the time, especially when the trails get steep and janky.
Min-Max Factor
Where does having an adaptable frame like the Arrival become a value? How often are folks really going to swap setups around? These are great questions. I'm a nerd, so I imagine a world where my hardtail and full suspension bikes are both mullets, running the same brake compounds and rotor sizes, and I have a set of light and a set of heavy-duty wheels that I can swap in minutes.
I'm getting damn fast at swapping links between the A130 and A170 setups I prefer and with split races swapping forks is fast. I like a 170mm dropper post on any bike with a seat tube angle that works for me so that's easy as well.
For most riders the value is probably only going to come up if making a move and wanting to re-optimize the bike for where they're living. Or possibly signing up for events. Like an A130 owner who wants to race an Enduro series or an A170 owner who wants to do the BCBR.
Swapping the Lyrik and Zeb back and forth between El Roy and Darrivco hasn't happened, yet.
A130 Vs. Darrivco
The A130 is a fun bike that screams for faster rubber than I had installed on it, and it's chilled out enough from the A150 that said rubber isn't going to get me in trouble. My complaint is that I feel shorter travel bikes should have slacker, not steeper, seat tube angles. Whereas the A170 with its static 76.6° effective STA works great for me, the A130's 77.9° effective STA doesn't suit the XC riding I'm doing on it. If anything they should be swapped, but therein lies the challenge of re-using frame assemblies.
By the numbers: 160mm Lyrik fork. 130mm frame travel from a 50mm stroke shock. 16° backsweep SQLab 30X bar cut to 770mm. 50mm NSBillet Overlord stem. 170mm SRAM GX cranks. Two 29" wheels. 170mm AXS dropper post.
By the feels: while the A170 is clearly the business, with pedaling that rivals the A130 and monster truck capabilities, there's something about the 160/130 travel Darrivco build that makes me smile. Just add your preferred flavour of tires and ride your bike.
With the Mattoc Pro pulled off to be lowered to 120mm, and the Arrival still dressed as an A130, I installed the 160mm travel Lyrik Ultimate from the A150 build and immediately fell in love. Maybe that's no surprise after Zero Darco Thirty but this thing is totally my jam. If I could justify the outlay for a carbon super-bike I think I could get over the Super Boost-157 hub spacing and the Trunnion mounted shock.
Right now the El Roy is wearing We Are One's Zeb Ultimate 170mm, the Arrival is built as an A130 with the 160mm Lyrik, and I've got a set of A170 links with a coil shock that's a fun swap to change everything up. That's winning at the game of forks.
Height - Steve Buscemi-ish
Wait - Patiently
Ape Index - T-Rex
Age - The same as DOS
Favourite Trail(s) every week - Pipeline (thank you Ken!) to Lower Crippler (thank you Andy!)
Favourite Song(s) this week - I'm Your Man. Nick Cave (covering Leonard Cohen)
Favourite Colour - Cosmic Lilac
Bar Width - It depends
Reach & Stack & ETT - It depends
Crank Length - 175mm except when it's 170mm
Wheel Size - Hot For Mullets
Comments
Cee Cee
8 months, 3 weeks ago
'As of Aug 7, 2023, the average hourly pay for a Juggler in British Columbia is $14.45 an hour.
While ZipRecruiter is seeing salaries as high as $23.80 and as low as $10.58, the majority of Juggler salaries currently range between $12.74 (25th percentile) to $15.14 (75th percentile) in British Columbia.
The average pay range for a Juggler varies greatly (as much as $2.40), which suggests there may be many opportunities for advancement and increased pay based on skill level, location and years of experience.'
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Andrew Major
8 months, 3 weeks ago
The minimum wage is $16.75/hr, so juggling makes wrenching on bikes look pretty good.
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Ride.DMC
8 months, 3 weeks ago
This is totally my cup of tea. I used to have two wheelsets and three sets of rubber for my Transition Bottlerocket.
I had the heavy duty wheels with the heavy casing, soft compound DHF/DHR2 tires for bike park & shuttle sessions.
I had a lighter set of wheels with light weight casing tires for "all mountain" or "regular" riding.
And then I had a set of Maxxis Holy Rollers that I could swap onto the light weight wheels in the winter for commuting, or I could put them on the heavy wheelset for skate park and dirt jumping etc.
It is amazing how much a wheelset (including tires & tire pressures) can affect how the exact same bike behaves and feels. Aside from a couple pounds in weight savings the bike was completely different depending on the wheels.
Even the trail feedback I could perceive in my hands (with the same bar & grips) was drastically different.
I am totally looking forward to more of these articles!
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Andrew Major
8 months, 3 weeks ago
I was having a discussion about bikes the other day and the Bottlerocket came up. I had a few friends who owned one and it was their only* mountain bike. From an epic alpine pedal to bike park shuttle action that was the rig.
I was trying to think of an example of another bike that captured riders in the same way. I mean, I know folks whose only bike was a Kona Stinky, or a Rocky Switch but it was more out of necessity than aspiration. The Bottle Rocket is the only full-suspension rig I can think of where there was a legitimate trend amongst multiple riders to say "this is my only mountain bike, I ride it everywhere."
I think the closest thing I've experienced since the differentiation of categories (I get it, at one time everyone had one bike and they raced XC and DH on it - the Bottlerocket came after that time) would be the Kona Honzo ST when it came out in 2012. Folks used Honzo frames for everything, but it still didn't, I think, capture the imagination quite like the Bottlerocket.
*Actually in one case it was complimented by a rigid single-speed but still, their only mountain bike by most people's metrics.
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Cr4w
8 months, 3 weeks ago
In the modern era I think you could safely say the Specialized Stump Evo, SC Hightower, Transition Sentinel could be that bike. Though none of these have the cult following of the Bottlerocket.
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Andrew Major
8 months, 3 weeks ago
Kona Process 153 maybe? Either the first generation or the current one. The current Trek Slash is very adaptable. Actually, the one bike other folks brought up is the Forbidden Druid and certainly, while HP+I isn't really my thing, I can see how that bike's being used for EWS racing and trail riding.
Arguably with modern geometry, there is an almost limitless list of options that could step up and fill the roll, and absolutely do for one rider or another but, as you say, without the I have one bike to do it all cult following.
Maybe it's a matter of the economics of who's mountain biking - the general aspiration seems to be to own many bikes, even amongst folks getting it all done on one.
If I had to say today, my someday fleet will be a rigid single-speed and an easy-to-maintain long-travel bike that pedals well enough. In other words, by most people's standards one mountain bike.
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Duncan Wright
8 months, 3 weeks ago
I’ve been pretty delighted with my Stumpjumper Evo being as big as I ever need while still having decent trail manners. Here’s hoping that I get on as well with the SS Japhy, as I would love to confine the quiver to just those two rigs (plus necessary fat bike and all-road bike).
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Andrew Major
8 months, 3 weeks ago
Two follow-up questions. Are you running the Evo as a mullet or a dual 29"? Are you running the Japhy rigid or with a suspension fork?
Konrad
8 months, 3 weeks ago
VP Free and Bullitt
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Andrew Major
8 months, 3 weeks ago
The original Bullitt is a great shout-out. I knew folks who had them built up as DH bikes with long travel dual crowns, folks who used them as trail bikes, and folks who had the parts to swap around and use them as both.
It didn't pop into my mind, but if there's a bike that was the Bottlerocket before there was a Bottlerocket that was it.
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Timer
8 months, 3 weeks ago
I can think of two, the original SC Nomad and the first Banshee Spitfire.
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Andrew Major
8 months, 3 weeks ago
I knew a fair few people with Nomads of every travel arrangement including a couple DC fork setups but at least locally I don’t know if it captured the one-bike imagination the way the Bottlerocket did?
Most the folks I knew with those Nomads had a couple mountain bikes. That’s a relatively small sample size though, I suppose.
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Ripbro
8 months, 3 weeks ago
On the Mattoc have you tried just connecting a pump, pulling down on the crown to reduce travel to the desired amount and then disconnecting the pump? This increases the size of the negative chamber and could make travel changes really quick. I know a few Mezzer users who don’t run any spacers (180mm mode) and then pull the fork down to 170mm. Could be a good experiment with this bike, and you could do back to back runs to see what feels best and make changes trailside.
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Andrew Major
8 months, 3 weeks ago
That's a very interesting question. I've never heard of anyone doing this on purpose but it would certainly make for fast game-of-fork swaps between the Enigma and my El Roy. The increase in negative pressure may be too great in the shorter travel format, but it's easy enough to try.
Thanks!
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JT
8 months, 3 weeks ago
I do this with the one my hardtail. Set it to 130 for the local dirt and raise it to 150 for more aggressive terrain. Also makes it easy to fit inside vehicles. You can pretty much drop it to 0 travel, and that opens a bit of real estate in a van.
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Andrew Major
8 months, 2 weeks ago
With the 130mm setting for local dirt, do you notice the difference in the negative spring volume ratio? I imagine the fork's softer off the top requiring more positive pressure than if it was lowered with spacers keeping the volumes consistent. Issues getting full travel then?
Very curious.
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JT
8 months, 2 weeks ago
TBH, I haven't noticed anything terribly out of sorts. Maybe a tick more LS comp depending on if the trail is on the smooth side, but I do that in 150 too. The travel spacers aren't much in volume. They have a lot of negative space, so I wonder if they really have much of an effect. Given they're the same between the Mattoc and Mezz, I think any effect would be less so in the Mezz.
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Andrew Major
8 months, 2 weeks ago
Yes, both by the I.D. of stanchions and the length of chambers (more travel) I'd expect there to be less difference on the Mezzer.
I'm going to try it myself with the Mattoc anyway and report back. Just need to make some time to mount it.
xtcphil
4 months, 1 week ago
Andrew, I also did the same travel change on the Mattoc routinely. I want someone to try it on the Magnum pro 29 plus from 120 to 130mm!
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We_Are_One_Composites
8 months, 3 weeks ago
What the Fork is happening here?
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Andrew Major
8 months, 3 weeks ago
HAHAHAHA.
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Onawalk
8 months, 3 weeks ago
Mr Major,
I'm going to be brutally honest here, and I hope its not taken the wrong way.....
This all seems like a way to keep us entertained, and hanging on for a full A130 review. I'm chomping at the bit to read all about it, as the 130 seems to have fallen off the radar for others (full sarcasm intended)
Also very intrigued to know how it is mulleted, so if anyone can help Mr Major out with a 157, 275 rear wheel, I for one would greatly appreciate it!
I've short stroked my Fugitive to 120/150, and use it as my coaching bike, and it is an absolute blast to ride on mellower trails (a spectacle when I get myself in over my head as well. Its never let me down, just upps the pucker factor)
I've been toying with throwing a 275 rear wheel on the back for the last little bit, so I'm hoping you get the opportunity to try it on the A130 for some feedback (I recognize theyre different animals, but you get the point)
the A130, Druid, and Darco Ti are currently on my list to replace the Fugitive.....Not sure how to convince you to run a comparison, but I'll do what I can.
Please good sir, I beg you!
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Andrew Major
8 months, 3 weeks ago
Most of everything I do for NSMB is from my stream of consciousness. I'm swapping forks for the umpteenth time and it occurs to me to write something about swapping forks.
I do have another installment coming on the Arrival. I've been asked what kompromat they have on me - apparently, every other piece with my name on the byline has the We Are One featured in it - but the fact is it's like reviewing four bikes in one.
--------
Put in terms of the bike you own, what's the difference between riding an over-forked Fugitive or a Fugitive LT with the same exact build? Running the same model of shock, with the same eye-to-eye with the same sag in millimeters (not percentage) should deliver the exact same ride with a little more forgiveness at the end stroke.
That's where I'm at with the Arrival these days. I'm riding the off-menu A140. It has the same 160mm fork I had on the A130, the same geometry, exact build, and the same sag in millimeters running the same Super Deluxe air shock. It's the same, but deeper. Pretty cool rig.
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kamloops_rider
8 months, 3 weeks ago
Looking forward to your thoughts on the Arrival(s). I’m looking at trying out the A140 option as well.
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Onawalk
8 months, 3 weeks ago
The Fugitive as an LT was an altogether more forgiving ride, (original owner had it over forked at 170!) the ST version, as it is now, feels more energetic on the climbs. Surprisingly, I've managed to keep the rear wheel in tact (I'm hard on stuff) and I attribute that to the crappy tires I have fitted (intentionally, to keep the spice alive). Keeps me on my toes, and seems to keep me from really smashing into stuff.
I would like to try a 275 rear, in an attempt to liven it up a little more.
I do find the Fugitive a little flexy, compared to my V1 Sentinel, and current Spire, it doesnt have the same composure on the bigger landings, and real big berms. Thats the real impetus for making a change for next season
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Onawalk
8 months, 3 weeks ago
How about I go buy a 157, 275 rear wheel, you drop off the Arrival with me, and I do some initial testing. Then I send the bike and wheel back with you to do some testing.
Then send me back the wheel, and I'll mount it up on the Fugitive, you know, for more testing
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kamloops_rider
8 months, 3 weeks ago
I can provide some insight on the A130 vs Druid (had v1 and now v2). They are more similar than not, however the Druid climbs slower (marginally depending on your energy that ride) and feels like it climbs slower. The A130 doesn’t climb like a rocketship but it feels quicker and feels like it uses less energy. The opposite would be for descending where the Druid just feels more composed and more confidence inspiring- also stiffer framewise laterally. I normally don’t strava but tend to go back to it while getting acquainted with a new bike. According to my times, both bikes can descend just as quickly and can tackle a climb very closely. The Druid just needs more energy to do so on the climbs but feels better on the descents.
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Moritz Haager
8 months, 3 weeks ago
Getting a bit OT, but curious to hear your thoughts on V1 vs V2 druid. I‘m currently on the V1 and love it, and felt a bit underwhelmed by the updates, or maybe in better put, no compelling desire tu upgrade.
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Andrew Major
8 months, 3 weeks ago
There’s no such thing as OT in these threads?!
I think it speaks both to V1 and to the state of bikes that the changes were relatively subtle? HP+I trail bikes aren’t my cup of tea but clearly folks that love their Druids love their Druids.
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Moritz Haager
8 months, 3 weeks ago
Haha, thats fair, and one of the things I love about NSMB. It’s one of the few sites where I actually read the comments section. You are right, Druid owners do seem to love our Druids. I just can‘t think of a more versatile bike that I have owned. I have ridden this thing on my home trails here in Edmonton, to Froome, and Seymour, and at Panorama and Silver Star bike parks, and have never felt grossly under or overbiked, at least for my level of riding. I suspect some of it is the HP+I, but probably a ton of it is just that the fit and geometry just work for me, plus that it feels burly enough to put up with what I personally can throw at it. I suspect that you are correct about how good most bikes are these days, and if I had the same basic Geo and fit on a different suspension design I might be just as happy. Given the large variety of terrain I ride, I am looking forward to your review of the A130, A150, A170. One bike that can relatively easily be adapted to different terrains is certainly intriguing. Plus carbon made in Canada, is definitely worth a premium in my opinion.
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Andrew Major
8 months, 3 weeks ago
It's funny, in conversations with about the Arrival I was regularly bringing up the question of what premium it should/could demand being produced in North America (never mind being BC made for more local folks) and it gets pointed out time and again that there isn't really a premium being charged for that, whether they could or not.
kamloops_rider
8 months, 3 weeks ago
I would agree with Andrew that the changes are subtle between the V1 and V2. I also had a Dreadnought. I feel the biggest changes are in geometry and the elimination of the lower guide which can be accomplished with the cascade components guide on the V1. For some reason the V2 suspension doesn’t feel as floaty over the chunk as the V1 or Dreadnought.
I would stick with the V1 if you’re happy.
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Onawalk
8 months, 3 weeks ago
Thats saying something for sure.
Question for the group, with the Druid travel being measured vertically, but having a touch over 20mm or rearward travel as well, has anyone measured the actual travel along that arc of the axle path?
I'm assuming you're essentially riding a bike with 140+ travel, so the comments regarding climbing (man the V2 appears to be heavier than I would have imagined) and descending.
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helpimabug
8 months, 3 weeks ago
I love having a hardtail and fs that can share parts.
They’re getting on in years, but my ht/fs combo has been a ‘16 Explosif and a ‘17 Endorphin. Same wheel size, hub spacing, bb, headset, seatpost dia., and run the same drivetrain on both.
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Andrew Major
8 months, 3 weeks ago
I'm not trying to be negative, I'm just very curious. I guess the one thing that wouldn't carry forward to a Knolly or a Kona is the rear hub spacing (although you can boostinate 142 to 148) but regardless, do you plan to have those two bikes 'forever' or do you have a replacement time frame in mind? And when the time comes will you replace both in short order to keep the intercompatibility high, or will you look to replace one with something that has as much carry-forward as possible?
I enjoy these sorts of fleet snapshots and like to ask people what they were riding before and will be riding in the future.
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helpimabug
8 months, 3 weeks ago
Oh man, I honestly have no idea! Not planning on forever, because eventually even the best frames crack. Maybe if my son gets tall enough to ride them I’ll get something new? Doubtful if I can get away with buying two new bikes at once. Probably keep riding the Explosif longer because it’s “just” a hardtail. But it puts me in a bit of an awkward spot because I’ve been able to make these bikes work for me for so long. The de facto standards for a lot of things have changed, some that I like and some that I don’t.
That Endorphin in particular is really right where I want it. Helm mkI coil @150. Works -2 gives it a 64.2 hta and 74.5 sta. I ride about 10 miles on the road to the trails a lot and that sta is perfect. For steep climbs I scoot forward on my long Chromag saddle. The reach is 465 on the L frame, and I maximize it with a 50mm stem slammed with 50mm riser bars and the roll straight up. The effective reach ends up longer than most 475 bikes with a 40 stem and a bunch of spacers. I cut down the seat tube (re-cut the clamp slot on the back side like they do with the S frames) so that I could run a 213 revive. The shock is the newer version Cane Creek inline air with a needle bearing in the upper eyelet. Rocker links updated to the M8 bolt versions. 1up bash guide bolts on the ISCG mount like god intended. 12spd gx dub cranks with the rest of the drivetrain 11spd (people forget an xg-1195 cassette weighs 270g and lasts forever). 142mm hydra rear hub and a hope4 in the front, blah blah blah -it’s a good bike.
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Andrew Major
8 months, 3 weeks ago
I know a few folks who had those Endorphins and love them. Good call with cutting down the seat tube, I did the same with my previous-gen Rift Zone frame.
I like how you tucked the ISCG bash taco comment in there, hahaha. I'll get on board with some ring protection is better than no ring protection, but I'll stick with the crank-mounted bash guard side of this schism.
Angleset in the Explosif as well or just the Endorphin?
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helpimabug
8 months, 3 weeks ago
Yup, -1 headset on the ‘splo and overforked with an old non-boost DVO diamond @140. Puts it at about 65.5 I think.
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xtcphil
4 months, 1 week ago
I recently added a Endorphin to the fleet and was eyeing up the seat tube for trimming! I short shocked mine, 184mm i to i, lower, slacker, less travel.
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boomforeal
8 months, 3 weeks ago
> My complaint is that I feel shorter travel bikes should have slacker, not steeper, seat tube angles.
This! I’ve often started at frames that allow for travel adjustment but go the other way, and tried to figure out if there’s any way this could happen. Andrew, do you know any suspension design that accomplishes or allows for this — or any configuration of tubes that would?
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Andrew Major
8 months, 3 weeks ago
With the same frame members, I was thinking that the Rocky Mountain Instinct/Altitude would have enough adjustment to fake it outside of other adjustments, but that's not the case without over-forking.
I've gotten there with over-forking, a mullet rear wheel (29/29 going to 29/27), and by running an offset seat post (9point8). I've also played around with shorter eye-to-eye lengths on shocks with varying degrees of success; however, I can't think of an example where with the frame members being the same a company accomplishes the slacker STA for shorter travel.
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DancingWithMyself
8 months, 2 weeks ago
Agreed. To me, this is a HUGE strike against a manufacturer trying to create numerous bikes with the same front and rear triangles. With Guerilla Gravity it's one thing, because arguably you are saving some money compared to something from a bigger brand.
It'd be real, real hard for me to pay high-end frame dollars for a bike with a STA that's suboptimal because it wasn't chosen specifically for the configuration/travel I'm going to run, unless maybe I had plans on regularly swapping between configurations, but that seems like a huge PITA. And you'd need to swap out some components for both configurations to make any sense.
I'd say the same thing about geometry aspects: would not pay a premium price for a bike that doesn't have true variance in RC and stack height across sizes, unless it magically happened to have a higher stack height and longer RC that was optimal for an XL (like a Banshee).
The Arrival kinda, sorta has these attributes, depending on the configuration. But on the bad end, the stack height is stupid low in the 130 configuration: XL is 618 of stack with 509 of reach. In what world is that even remotely acceptable for a high-end frame?
I love WAO as company, my Union rims are fantastic, and the Arrival seems incredibly refined for a first bike. But, I cannot remember seeing reviewers and comment sections go so easy on a bike, especially when you throw in super boost (although the way they do it makes a ton of sense, apart from the irritation of a different standard). I wonder how different the reception would have if the bike wasn't from an excellent, rider-owned company in the sea-to-sky corridor.
Haven't we gotten smart and crowned geometry as king? And isn't geometry compromised, at least to some degree in the 130 and 170 configurations, by the very fact it's a modular frame bike?
I'm fascinated to read Andrew's review. Hoping it will explore some of these limitations more than anything else I've seen. Because for all my complaining, the frame looks amazing and if they went actual travel-specific designs, I'd be very interested.
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Andrew Major
8 months, 2 weeks ago
This is foreshadowed a bit in the photos accompanying everything I've written about the Arrival to date in terms of the number of headset spacers and height of riser bars I use with some formats.
That said, the combinations I like the best are the A170 and the A140 w/ 160mm fork, and in both those setups I'm happy with the stack height of the large.
I didn't get along with the A150 and didn't think I went easy on it in my review. It's a particular bike for a particular rider. Other than the shitty rear brake routing (cable routing in general if not running AXS/T-Type) and the fact I still don't love Trunnion mount, I have predominantly positive things to say about my subsequent Arrival experiences but I'll definitely talk about STA getting steeper on the shorter travel bikes unless you over-fork or use an external lower headset cup and will mention stack height as well, which works better with a 160-170mm fork.
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DancingWithMyself
8 months, 2 weeks ago
I had forgotten about that review, because I had already decided I'd check back in when they made travel-specific triangles. You absolutely did not go easy on them. It was a good review.
I'm not trying to be hard on WAO. I love, love, love the idea of a truly boutique carbon frame made by a company like WAO that doesn't give up anything to former boutiques likes Santa Cruz and Yeti.
Don't know if you saw the Hope review on the other site, but I guess in your review of the WAO you can list as a strong, strong plus: "rear triangle does not contact front triangle at full compression." Holy shit.
Guess making outstanding frames is a little harder than outstanding components.
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Andrew Major
8 months, 2 weeks ago
Regarding the Hope/shock issue, I can’t know for certain this is actually what happened but I have come across that exact issue with DH bikes from another high end engineering-forward brand.
The bikes were designed and tested with coil shocks which can never fully stroke out because their rubber bottom-out bumpers only compress ~50%.
When an air shock was installed It was possible to just kiss the seatstay bridge to the seat tube in full-on bottom out situations.
If that’s the case it should be very easy for Hope to order their air shocks with a tiny spacer to limit the stroke enough to prevent contact.
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DancingWithMyself
8 months ago
Incredibly insightful! Thank you!
mrbrett
8 months, 3 weeks ago
This hits home for me - I just swapped back to HT mode again this evening, having finished my road trip on the weekend. Took 22 mins to go back-forth or forth-back, and as far as consumables I only use a new shift cable every second swap.
Ingredients:
Doctahawk frame
Specialized Status 160 frame
Two BBs, two rear brakes, two headsets, two droppers
One light (2.3”, no insert) and one heavy (2.6”, insert, wide rim) front wheels
Similar thing for the back wheels but a light and fast 29 on one, and a 27 chonk on the other
Four brake rotors the same size
One Fox 36, 160mm
One drivetrain
etc.
It’s like having two bikes with none of the space and fewer cost ramifications. And I can only ride one at a time anyway… plus I enjoy tinkering, so this is a match made in heaven.
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Andrew Major
8 months, 3 weeks ago
It's funny, I was looking at my Rifty today and thinking about how long it would take to swap parts back and forth between that and the El Roy. Both frames have a headset already and the Rifty is already cabled for a dropper.
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UFO
8 months, 2 weeks ago
Reminds me of my peak bike lego days in the early 2000s. I had a .243 hardtail setup with Marzocchi Mr.T's. Then also a Norco VPS almost fully built up with a set of empty dual crowns. I'd swap the fork from stanchions down back and forth along with the front brake lever. Wheels also transfer between the 2 bikes. I got the process down to about 10 minutes
These days I'm fortunate enough to have a Norco Torrent HT and Giant Trance 29; a set of 29 and a set of 27.5+ wheels between the 2 covers all my various use cases.
But all the bikes in our household run Shimano brakes, 10 speed Shimano drivetrains for ultimate bike lego'ing in a pinch
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Andrew Major
8 months, 2 weeks ago
I saw a .243 hardtail a couple of weeks ago. The kid was shredding it as a townie/urban rig based on the build. It was a nice prompt to reminisce for a moment, it's not a brand that's ever front of mind but there was one year there that I rode with at least ten different people who owned one.
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UFO
8 months, 2 weeks ago
Yes definitely a cult like following for a couple of years, in line with the Pippen Osborne Banshee. The latter .243s even had chain tugs ;)
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Andrew Major
8 months, 2 weeks ago
There is a certain appeal to the one-bike company.
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Blofeld
8 months, 3 weeks ago
I’ve historically not been interested in running a bike in the reduced travel mode. The reasoning has been that if I’m going to have the frame weight and stiffness, I also may as well have the displacement. Maybe I’m coming around, as I will admit that the option to overfork, as illustrated here, does seem desirable. I imagine the short links add a bit of flex to the frame as well.
Now I just need WR1 to put out a bigger frame size! (The XL is equivalent to a Nicolai medium).
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Andrew Major
8 months, 3 weeks ago
I feel-ish the same way?! Especially because the A170 pedals really well and it’s a 170mm bike on the descents. But as you know, there’s so much more to bikes than numbers on a chart, and the A140 is just fun. It suits me up and down.
The challenge for small(er) brands is always the size curve. Agreed that WR1 needs one larger frame.
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Dude@
8 months, 3 weeks ago
Love reading about your tinkering - thanks!
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Andrew Major
8 months, 3 weeks ago
Cheers! Thanks for reading & engaging.
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FlipSide
8 months, 3 weeks ago
This article hits home for me (again). Thanks Andrew!
I am currently in a multi-year program of replacing the whole mtb fleet for maximum cross-compatibility (Boost rear ends, 29" or mullet, ZS 44/56 Cane Creek headsets, XD drivers, identical hubs or shimmed rotors to avoid having to realign the calipers whenever I change wheelsets, etc. )
I currently have a big travel Enduro bike with two 27.5" wheelsets (one with inserts, the other without) and a Honzo ESD 29" with a 150mm fork. The plan for the next bike is to build a short travel bike (Druid, Darco) that will share the fork and wheelset with the ESD. The way I see it, it will be super quick to swap the fork and wheelset between the the hardtail and trail full-susp whenever I feel like having a rear suspension or not. Down the line, I will probably have 3 complete bikes, but spreading the frame + fork + wheelset purchase over a few years will be much easier on the wallet. Then the big bike is likely to be replaced as well.
It is refreshing to be able to do this again, now that the bike industry seemed to have settled down a bit on the new standards after years of chaos. Mixing and matching components was one of the most fun part 20 years ago. Really glad to be able to do this again, after a long and sad period where switching parts between bikes in the fleet was not really possible. :)
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Andrew Major
8 months, 3 weeks ago
Cheers!
“Mixing and matching components was one of the most fun part 20 years ago. Really glad to be able to do this again, after a long and sad period where switching parts between bikes in the fleet was not really possible. :)”
It’s exciting. I have to check myself a bit when reviewing bikes because often rigs, like the Arrival, aren’t compatible with my other rigs but certainly they would be if they were mine.
It’s one thing if a bike has legacy standards - my wife’s custom hardtail, for example, uses a 142 rear hub - but owning two current bikes and having them match as much as possible is prudent.
And fun!
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DancingWithMyself
8 months, 3 weeks ago
It's nice to have components all lined up. I've had multiple instances of pulling a brake off one bike to use on another, swapping out a bent crank, etc. A lot of times it saves a trip, since, as we wall know, right before a trip or on a trip is when at least 90% of mechanicals occur.
From a riding perspective, it is really nice as well, especially if you don't ride a bike all that much unless you're traveling. Same saddle, bar, grips, shifters, brakes, etc. make it easy to feel at home.
But the downside is you end up feeling a little stuck. I've got Code RSC's on three bikes. With MTX pads, a good bleed, and some 220s on the big bike, I'm happy enough. And I have an extra brake hose, master cylinder rebuild kit, caliper rebuild kit, spare pads, a pro bleed kit, and all sorts of extra screws and washers and such from over the years.
I'd like to try some Dominions or another option, but damn if it's not hard to go out on that limb. There's time limitations with career and kids, and I'm pretty good and efficient at working on what I know. And what if I like them a lot better? Three sets of new brakes, rotors, spare parts, etc. is pricey.
Guess I'm saying getting things set up with great interchangeability can kinda make your bikes a bit boring as it gets even easier to just stay with what you know. Maxxis has built an entire business model around this phenomena.
Choose carefully!
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FlipSide
8 months, 3 weeks ago
Interesting perspective and I think you are totally right there is a risk of making your bikes a bit boring if you use the same components on all of them.
The way I see it, components compatibility from one bike to the other is important, but I agree using the same components on all builds is a bit much. Also, trying out various stuff is part of the fun. For example, I have Guide, G2, Code and XT brakes in the fleet. I also have SRAM and Shimano cranksets, various brands of bars, stems, grips droppers, seat, etc. on the different bikes. My hardtail has XX1 11sp, while the full-susp has Eagle. These components are all compatible with the various bikes, so I can swap them as I need, but in general, they stay on the bike for a long time if I am happy with the setup.
:)
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Andrew Major
8 months, 3 weeks ago
Lately, I've mainly been splitting time between the Dominion A4, Dominion A2, and an old pair of Magura MT-7s in addition to the Code brakes on the Arrival. Certainly, the Code brakes are underwhelming compared to the other options and that's something that's been the focus of my ire on rides when I'm dialing in setup changes (which has happened quite a lot since the Arrival project has been like reviewing four bikes at the same time).
Today I was riding some properly steep old-school jank - admittedly in perfect conditions - and for the first few minutes I was lamenting the difference but then I focus on shredding and the A140 is so dialed right now everything just works. And when I saw your comment I may not have agreed a couple weeks ago, but I do think the solution for me would be to have the Code brakes on every bike I ride and just vary the rotor size by application and I'd be good.
I'd rather have the Dominions or Magura or Cura 4 brakes, but as long as I wasn't flipping back and forth between systems I could absolutely make the Code brakes work for me.
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DancingWithMyself
8 months, 3 weeks ago
That's super interesting to see you say that and comforting. And I'm talking exclusively RSC's with aftermarket pads and 2mm rotors. Apart from the availability of spare parts and ease of service, one reason I started out down the Code RSC path was that for someone who's very OCD about touch points and cockpit setup, it's so stupidly easy to get the exact same reach and bit point on both levers on the same bike, and from bike to bike.
The only very basic sorcery that I know of with the RSC's is to bleed with the contact dial near the midpoint and/or pressurize the system slightly from the caliper, and maybe top off the fluid with a bubble bleed as the pads wear. I see some of the instagram posts and forum discussions re other brakes with people trying to get a setup with no rubbing and short, equal lever throws, and it makes me grateful for the Codes.
But you'll damn sure never catch me trying out Dominions or something similar! I won't ride something unless I'm in the market to purchase it. I'm happy with my mid-shelf brakes and have no desire to spoil my palette.
I also think there's something to be said for riding what you know. I could throw some Trickstuff brakes on my big bike I only ride on trips, but when I'm pushing myself on terrain I don't get to ride regularly, I actually think that'd be less fun and safe than sticking with what I know.
As you can tell, I have absolutely zero aptitude to be a reviewer. Appreciate others doing it for me, and especially enjoy your reviews and the thoughtful, non-consumerist take on bikes.
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Andrew Major
8 months, 3 weeks ago
‘Everyone’ has their special moves for getting the best SRAM brake bleed, hahaha.
In the past when I owned two bikes the brakes were the one thing that I really liked to match. Different grips, bars, etc. I was the same way, one new pair of brakes means two new pairs of brakes so think carefully before trying anything else.
By necessity I’m more adaptable now.
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Kyle Dixon
8 months, 3 weeks ago
Anecdotally, one of my very good ride partners whos a Code RSC acolyte spoiled, nah, ruined his palette this weekend after a few laps on my Dominion A4'd Tyee.
They're forbidden ambrosia in brake form, and my 230lb Clydesdale self loves the capability they provide. If I can get (READ 'afford on Govt salary') a set of the Ano Purple Dominons... well, the XT's on my trail bike, an overforked '14 Camber, will be swapped out for the Bronze A4's currently on the Tyee.
Sorry to stir your Brake Pot(s)
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Velocipedestrian
8 months, 3 weeks ago
I guess I have an advantage in having Works headsets in both bikes, just leave those (split) races in places. Haven't tried the new Diamond on the Moxie yet, but next time my thRifty needs work I'll give it a hoon.
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Andrew Major
8 months, 2 weeks ago
In a proper game-of-forks it makes sense just to run compatible headsets. Or at least headsets with inter-compatible races. But in my case, or in a case when the game-of-forks wasn't necessarily planned, split races save the day.
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UFO
8 months, 2 weeks ago
I've always wondered, these days most headset crown races seem to be compatible? I'll admit to mainly using run of the mill Cane Creek and FSA headsets which I've found to be interchangeable, I had a Works -2 for a build and recall that race was also not unique
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Andrew Major
8 months, 2 weeks ago
You are correct in that most headsets are compatible with Cane Creek. But also, plenty are not. HAHAHA. But the Enduro MaxHit headset I'm reviewing and the Wolf Tooth headsets we have on a couple bikes in the house can all use the same crown races. I generally use the steel Cane Creek ones.
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Velocipedestrian
8 months, 2 weeks ago
Take a stiff card / square / thin thing with 90° corner, insert it into lower bearing and look to see if the faces match or not...
Yes - you have a 45° bearing, any 45° race will fit.
No - you probably have a 36° bearing, but it's trickier to be sure (to be sure).
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bart
8 months, 3 weeks ago
I never realized I pre-date DOS..
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Andrew Major
8 months, 2 weeks ago
HAHAHA. Learn something new every day right?!
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Justin White
8 months, 3 weeks ago
What exactly makes a bike "work very well over-forked and even under-forked"? Isn't just just a matter of specific geometry, sizing, and ride-style wants? An over-forked Honzo ESD is not always going to work well for every rider and every place, while under-forking a random bike explicitly not on your list might genuinely work better for a certain rider in certain situations.
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Cam McRae
8 months, 3 weeks ago
Different strokes seems to apply well here.
I loved my Honzo ESD with a 170mm Fox 36. I wish they still made those (and the Lyrik) for lighter riders who don't require the burly stiffness of the 38 and Zeb. I feel like that sort of applies to me at 165lbs or so. I bought a bike for my 106lb wife and it came with a 160mm Fox 38 - in size small. Luckily you can still get a 160mm Lyrik so I swapped it out before cutting the steerer.
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