Full Suspension VS. Hardtail Reach figures (static vs. sagged)?

Hey All,

I am looking for some guidance from the hive mind of NSMB.  I ride a full suspension bike that is a size large but has a fairly modest reach of 467mm. The bikes reach figures are firmly between a lot of manufacturers size medium & size large.  It makes sense that it fits me well because I am in between most manufacturers size medium and size large.

I am looking at getting myself a hardtail, but I am bit lost on whether I should size up to a large or size down to a medium.

I rode a size medium Kona Honzo ESD recently which has a reach of 465mm.  It actually felt quite a bit longer than my full suspension and I am hypothesizing that is due to the reach on a hardtail getting slightly longer as the fork sags into it's travel.  On a full suspension with the front & rear both compressing I am guessing the reach figures remain close to the same as they are presented on a static geo chart.  If that is true it makes me think I should size down a bit?

Like, perhaps a hardtail with a reach of 450mm - 455mm might feel closer in size to my full suspension bike than the ESD did?

I am usually riding similarly reachy bikes, and have experience sizing hardtails to the same or a shorter reach. In short: I agree with your analysis.

However, depending on what you want from your hardtail, both matching the reach or sizing it down could be beneficial. I wouldn't claim they feel similar to an FS in either case, as riding a hardtail in similar terrain will usually nudge you to a very different weight distribution fore and aft, as "riding the fork" allows for a smoother ride in chunky terrain (assuming a firm and supportive fork setup).

My FS bikes have always hovered around 470mm reach, and I started my aggressive hardtail journey on a Pipedream Moxie with the same reach as well. In fact, I even ended up underforking it a bit, increasing reach further. For a very stable ride on relatively rough and demanding terrain (by my standards anyway), this was a good setup to replace a full suspension bike. Agility-wise you could notice the long wheelbase of course. Recently, I've been riding an older Last Fastforward frame, with about 450mm of reach and overall shorter wheelbase, but similar angles and only slightly shorter chainstays. Here, the gain in agility is significant, with minor concessions to stability at speed/in the rough. As my only bike with suspension however, this is becoming tiring when trying to push myself on rides twice a week.

So if it is a relatively playful and agile hardtail you're after, I'd recommend sizing down. If you want to ride it as if it was an FS of similar travel, the longer reach will be worth it in my opinion.

I think the sagged effect on reach of a hardtail vs full suspension is generally overstated in the real world. Sometimes you're over the front of a full suspension and unweighting the back wheel, what then? My full suspension has a ~480 reach and my hardtail ~490 and they feel about the same once I dialed in the cockpits.

Posted by: Abies

Sometimes you're over the front of a full suspension and unweighting the back wheel, what then? 

Haha - in that scenario I am probably about to go OTB!

Thanks for the input though. I realize there are more factors to bike fit than reach alone.  In my case, for two bikes with such similar reach numbers the HT felt considerably longer than the FS.

The 1.2 degree slacker head angle was also VERY noticeable, despite being such a small difference on paper.

Butt to bar* is my go to measurement when comparing bikes.  * or nose of saddle to centre of bar given you use the same stem and saddle.

This gives me a comparable seated reach between bikes.  Then it's CS length, HA and wheelbase.  Reach ends up being what it is.

I do subscribe to the Andrew Major theory that a HT should be 2 degrees slacker than the equivalent FS bike - this accounts for say 1 degree of HT fork sag and 1 degree of FS rear sag.

Posted by: Abies

I think the sagged effect on reach of a hardtail vs full suspension is generally overstated in the real world. Sometimes you're over the front of a full suspension and unweighting the back wheel, what then? My full suspension has a ~480 reach and my hardtail ~490 and they feel about the same once I dialed in the cockpits.

Mine are 515 on the FS and 475 on the HT and the butt to bar is similar.  STA is much steeper on the FS.