EDITORIAL
Extreme Metal
Alright – I’m just gonna come out and say it – backlash be damned:
Mountain Biking is better when we make room for Everyone.
Now, for some reason, there’s still an embarrassingly large group of fragile folks connected to our sport, and the industry that runs it, who are scared to say that publicly. Sure, they may whisper it in sequestered board rooms to satisfy HR initiatives and check off EDI boxes, but when it comes to stating it out loud, it scares the hell out of them.
The monochrome, hive-minded persona mountain biking has catered to since its inception is something I couldn’t help but obsess over after hearing about a UBC/Oakland University study that endeavoured to understand the practitioners & fanbase of Extreme Metal guitar.
The reserchers determined that the folks who speed-shred their 6-strings is overwhelmingly heterosexual and male – as are those who listen to the genre; not overly surprising if you’ve ever seen Slayer live.
What WAS surprising, however, unearthed itself when the researchers examined the motivations of those who played this precision-based uber-heavy rock.
Now, before I really get into what the researchers postulated and discovered, we all need to acknowledge that this was an academic psychology paper – referencing numerous psychological theories that tie human motivation and bahaviour back to the primal need to pass our DNA onto future generations.
I’ll happily concede that, through a modern lens, this idea could be looked at as an over-simplification – not EVERYTHING is about sex, after all - and that’s pretty much what the study goes on to say.
So, if hetero dudes are pouring thousands of hours into shredding strings at light speed for the enjoyment of other heterosexual men, what is the carnal, evolutionary motivation? What caveman-level, survival-of-the-fittest brain chemistry is driving them to play ever-increasingly complex, adrenaline-fueled licks that potential mating partners are almost exclusively repulsed by?
Well, for lack of a better word – CLOUT.
It was determined that Extreme Metal guitarists perfect their craft solely to elevate their reputation and social status within the culture of other hetero dudes who shred.
So, why are you reading about this on a mountain biking website?
3 reasons:
First, beyond the idea that we can ride bikes just for the sheer enjoyment of it, we also have to acknowledge that hitting Double Black lines, piling on the steeze over a massive gap and generally shredding the gnar will have very little impact on our attractiveness or perceived viability as a potential mate.
Meaning, in short, if you’re just in this to “get the girl”, you’re not all that likely to be successful.
You will, however, potentially up your status within the OVERWHELMINGLY heterosexual white male populous of mountain biking. So, if that’s what you’re doing, and you’re okay with it, ROCK ON! Not hurting anyone – as long as you respect all humans along the way.
Second, we need to formally acknowledge that there’s a massive population out there who just enjoy a good melody – not distorted, lightspeed, aggression-fueled arpeggios, or the MTB equivalent of them.
Meaning, if somebody from the “inside” pulls out the acoustic guitar around the metaphorical campfire from time to time and sings a catchy, heartfelt melody, not only are we far more likely to continue our MTB lineage through future generations, we’ll also play to a much larger audience.
The Rock 'n Roll equivalent of the shredit.
The softer side of rock 'n roll that mountain bikers might learn from.
So, if I haven’t lost you yet, for mountain biking to grow and connect with more people, we need to move past the Speed Metal Shreddit and shake-in a periodic dash of Taylor Swift so more folks can feel comfortable giving riding a try.
Third, and this applies to every hetero-male-centric sports, activities and hobbies, we need to examine how the defensive wall that connects shred-clout to self-worth endures when its Currency of Cool is scrutinized or questioned.
Like, what happens when a *gasp* woman, member of the LGBTQIA2+ community, person of colour or any other “non-straight cis white male’s” skill bursts the clout-bubble, or even just dares to question its validity?
Oftentimes, the results are limited to the toxicity of the Comments Section – an easily avoidable cesspool of white rage, bruised egos and bazooka-barfed hate-speech-lite. Precisely the opposite kind of message to what mountain biking needs if we’re going to connect with more people.
Tragically, challenging the white patriarchy status quo - which is sort of what I’ve been alluding to – can get a hell of a lot worse than keyboard trolls hiding behind internet anonymity – so we, as a riding community and as the industry who runs it, NEED to turn up the volume on this.
Now, I’m not saying Shredits can’t happen – there’ll always be a space for going big - but if we’re going to keep growing as a sport and as a community, we need to establish and accept the value of songs by folks who we haven’t really been listening for.
And, even if we don’t know the words, we’ve got to listen and learn while humming along in support. Eventually, if we really commit, we’ll get to the point where their songs are as present and important as the Extreme Metal that mountain biking has been for so many years.
What’s the worst that can happen?
Richard Belson first wrote for NSMB back in 2001, and he keeps sneaking back in every time we forget to lock the back door. A recovering bike industry wordsmith with an affinity for MTB & trials history, he’s still up for a rip on the new stuff, as long as his health insurance can keep up.
Comments
pablobell
1 month ago
Please kill the AI art crap. It's a dystopian nightmare.
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Lu Kz
1 month ago
I don't know why they needed to resort to AI when the most metal photo on the site is right here:
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Onawalk
1 month ago
This is a rad pic!
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Dave Smith
1 month ago
North Shore Santa should ride again!
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Lu Kz
1 month ago
- steel bike ✓
- single pivot ✓
- styling the heck out of a fast, flat corner ✓
- arms any metal guitarist would have to respect ✓
- sickass beard ✓
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Perry Schebel
3 weeks, 6 days ago
i'm a bit surprised now when see pics in full beardo mode; it's been a while. will def give it a go again some day tho. do the wizened old wizard thing.
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justwan naride
1 month ago
100% agree, it's disturbing.
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FlipSide
1 month ago
Yep! Here is another vote for never ever seeing AI art garbage on NSMB again.
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fartymarty
1 month ago
It's a NO from me as well. Let's keep shit real.
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Jimothy.benson
1 month ago
The fingers were a dead giveaway
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Bruce Mackay
1 month ago
The rubber bend at the wrist. On the "female representation" on the near focus side. The perfectly clean shoes in the fire. I feel like American Eagle adds looked vaguely like this. SO clear ly fake.
"Guitar hero dude" looks 12 with 35yr old cues.... Is that the prompt? feq!
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Flatted-again
1 month ago
I don’t know, some extreme metal sounds like you need a misshapen 6.5 finger hand to play it.
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Andy Eunson
1 month ago
Like Buckethead?
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Onawalk
1 month ago
Ill be honest here, the thumbnail AI pic is pretty awesome,
the campfire one feels a little creepy somehow.
It is really interesting to me what AI pics highlight, as its pulling things it feels are important or relevant. Its like an unknowing friend that points out something that is so obvious we often overlook it
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DanL
1 month ago
fucking hell, please stop doing this and promoting this bullshit AI art. Considering the regularity of articles that use incredible work from photographers on this site, this is a massve slap in the face to them. Why not pay someone for their work to illustrate the article. It's just fucking insulting.
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fartymarty
1 month ago
Personally I find most shredit videos boring and unrelatable. I get it people can jump huge gaps and it probably feels awesome to jump huge gaps.
Give me a Chromag video with people riding hardtails on trails that most of us can ride.
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Cr4w
1 month ago
I'm sorry but do we need the sport to grow? We've finally got shitloads of trails, Trailforks to find them, a population that can sustain the trail maintenance workload, great bikes (even with good options for little people and very big people and the varyingly-abled) and there's already a pretty good mix of races and genders out there. If anything at this point it's price keeping people out and that won't ever be lower than it is right now.
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Andy Eunson
1 month ago
I’m with you on that. The capitalist mantra of growth forever because money must change. Money does not buy happiness has always been true. I think most people intrinsically know that selling more goods and services to more people to drive population growth and economic growth is not sustainable. Covid should have taught people what too many people living close together and travelling too much does. Same goes for economies. The bigger it gets the harder it falls.
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Andreas Macke
1 month ago
Counterpoint - mountain biking is awesome, and people who spend a lot of time on trails (both riding and volunteering) tend to be happier. Frankly, as a society, I'd say we'd be better off if more people spent more time mountain biking, because in general happier people make for a better society. And that's before you think about any of the potential benefits from mountain bikers generally being pro-greenspaces, and mountainbiking displacing more destructive activities and consumption patterns. And also before you think through how mountain bikers tend to be healthier than couch potatoes or gamers, and what that means for us as a society.
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Andy Eunson
1 month ago
You’re not wrong Andreas. But we can see in other sports though where becoming more popular has had negative effects. Such as alpine skiing. A seasons pass for Whistler is less than it used to be. The negative consequence is crowded slopes and traffic. In Squamish the parking lot up past Quest is being enlarged now due to increased mountain biking activity. Weekends are pretty crowded up there now although actual trail conflicts aren’t too bad as far as I know.
From what I hear from a good friend who hikes almost daily in North and west Vancouver is that hiking trails are beat to shit from all the hiking use. If mountain biking becomes more popular we need to plan ahead now for extra parking, more trails and more maintenance. Add in e-bikes and use may grow even faster.
I dislike the statement that one often hears "if we want this activity to grow" as if it’s an inarguably good thing. Growth of an activity to reach a sustainable level is acceptable. A new small business needs to grow enough to become sustainable. But that business or activity doesn’t need to grow forever.
Becoming welcoming to all people is a good thing for sure. Part of that is understanding that not all mountain bikers desire to be rad awesome enduro bros. I witnessed that at NSMBA AGMs more than once. People would say "we need more black Diamond trails if people want to progress". Dude. Define progress. Accept that not every one wants to dorp to fault all day every day. Accept that some people prefer Lycra cycling clothes and helmets with no visor.
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taprider
1 month ago
I especially agree with your last point
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Andreas Macke
1 month ago
Resort skiing requires insane investment in infrastructure and operations. That makes fresh turns a very valuable commodity, and what you see in the ski industry is a natural result. Still, the Whistler example is more about real estate, corporate consolidation, and consumer marketing than it is about the activity of sliding on snow. See Revelstoke or Mt Baker for relatively nearby contrast.
Mountain biking exists on sweet spots on a number of spectra (scalability, sustainability, accessibility, etc ) , compared to things like resort skiing, traditional surfing, or dirt biking for example. Even in places with lots of riders (say greater Vancouver), trail access seems to still get better with more participation due to more volunteers, more stewardship/advocacy. In less urban settings like the Frazier Valley or down here in Bellingham, there's considerably less strain on resources and lots more room for beneficial growth.
In practical terms, that means there are whole swaths of the population to whom the sport is not all that accessible yet, whether that's for cultural, economic, transportation, or disability reasons. Working on ways to build bridges to those folks doesn't turn trail systems into overused waste lands or mean existing riders have to wait in line to drop into their favorite trails. Instead, it means things overall get better for us lucky enough already in the sport (more and better maintained trails), and we get to share something awesome that can enrich other peoples' lives like it does ours. That's pretty win-win in my book.
And that's the beauty of this thing. It's not like surfing, where the locals fiercely guard their break from n00bs and kooks because rideable waves are such a scarce resource. The resulting assholery and holier-than-thou pontificating/gatekeeping about what's core and who defines the soul of the sport is a nasty zero sum game, and in out sport, we don't need that BS. Sure, there are people who have imported that mindset, but frankly, that's on them and can safely be ignored.
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Bruce Mackay
1 month ago
This! This right here. There are unfathomable amounts of public lands (yes, I am choosing to ignore the white elephant in the room) in Canada (Crown Land), USA (BLM, Foresty Service, even Wilderness, if used appropriately). It's not a limitless resource, and a bike lets you see a lot of it so people will WANT to be stewards. and a trail is a low low impact way to make it approachable.
The scalability of mtb is one of my favorite aspects. The issue is the history of the "core bro's" who "start a scene" and the jump the rest of the public make to those other "X sport" cultures of exclusion. A great example of this, in just the places I know, are how Kelowna's trails developed (GIllard DH trails were the focus for a LONG time), Calgary / Kananaskis area and the NorthShore in Vancouver. The story was "Gosh why don't these cool people I met & who love the outdoors want to try this amazing thing I love?" Well the choice was rail trail or "blue diamond" terrain (Ladies Only / Dr No / Prairie Creek / Vapour). This is clearly changing, and some of the "speed metal" is being tuned to broader appeal, but it is still there, and even the "core bros", who are really the broader fringe, and I think most of us here fit that 15%, can scratch the itch.
I think that this is one of the reasons that '"gravel" has become so popular. The efficacy of bikes on other than paved road use, has let people who want to "get out there by bike", and do so with out the perceived risk. The "network" already exists. (I think an XC bikes serves better in a lot of these applications, but their perceived as inteneded for an extreme form as well, musically maybe "experimental / acid jazz"?) For a lot of people starting off road riding riding, the "shred" is not what they are aiming for, esp at the start, but that very broad middle ground (b/n gravel roads/rail trails and "blue diamond" terrain) is slowly coming. (Revelstokes amazing variety, even Squamish) Having raised two mountain bikers, and introducing several others to the sport, I think its great. I just hope that everybody (as in ALL people) get a chance to feel dirt under their tires, because in keeping the musical analogy, there's more than one way to play a guitar.
taprider
1 month ago
I agree with Cr4w's second point, that the price of bikes is limiting participation
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Vincent Edwards
1 month ago
Agreed. And I’ll add that I see a direct connection between ‘shred’ culture and bike prices.
I started Mountain Biking in 2009 with a $300 used 26” hardtail… and guess what? It was fun. But riding that same bike on modern black diamond trails would not be much fun. Making sure trail networks include some more approachable ‘green’ trails also allows folks to enter the sport with cheaper equipment while still having fun.
I think there’s an important difference between growth vs. evolution. A sport can evolve in ways that make it more accessible… or more exclusive. I’d be happy to see a gradual demographic shift with comparably small ‘growth’. And none of this will come at the expense of great advanced trails / more capable bikes.
So > no, I don’t want growth for the sake of growth in the capatilst paradigm. But I’d be happy to see some modest growth for the purpose of building a more inclusive and welcoming community within our sport.
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Powking
1 month ago
I'm in agreement with Cr4w. Why do we need to grow the sport? More people to share a limited number of trails and to push prices of things even higher?
Pass for me. I share it with very select people and do not evangelize MTB. There are lots of things that people can do to enjoy there lives more and have healthier outcomes - this doesn't need to be one of them.
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araz
1 month ago
I agree that growth for growth's sake is not a great goal, but there's a difference between that and the sport becoming welcoming to more people. I've never been to BC and I imagine it's a bit more enlightened up there than in the US southwest, but in my experience the MTB world is still pretty bro-y. My wife, who loves riding, hates going into bike shops for that reason. And I felt horribly when a female friend interested in buying a bike -- probably the fittest and most athletic person I know -- went to a small local shop on my recommendation. She went in her conservative work clothes and they condescended to her and pointed her towards their cheap recreation type bikes. She ended up getting a nice bike eventually (from a more welcoming, and more corporate, shop), but that experience put her off doing so for a while.
And I'll add another downvote for the AI visual content.
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tashi
1 month ago
plus one to this sentiment, perhaps we should be talking about "expanding" the sport, not growing it.
No need to make it bigger, it'll get as big as it needs to. But more welcoming, yes please.
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Pete Roggeman
1 month ago
I don't agree in growth for growth's sake, or for more money to line anyone's pockets, but the scarcity of trails and resources argument is a straw man - we only have the advocacy and access we enjoy now thanks to growth and the efforts and energy of those who swelled our ranks and lent their voices, time, expertise, and sweat equity. To say "I don't want anyone else crowding the trails" is arbitrarily deciding that you're in and happy NOW and screw the others who haven't had the fortune of discovering MTB yet.
Although this argument varies greatly depending on where you live and ride, the biggest issue is parking in North Van - once you're on the trails it's never crowded.
Anyway, I don't think the argument Richard is making is for growth, it's for access. Letting more people have the opportunity to discover MTB is different than focusing on increasing numbers, even if the end result is similar.
This is not a capitalist argument. More riders doesn't mean higher prices, it means the opposite. And MTB isn't at the bottom of cost - downward pressure has been placed on brands lately and it's entirely possible that could continue. Bikes cost too much, I agree, but making MTB more exclusive - or not making it less exclusive - is not the answer if the cost of bikes is a major concern.
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NealWood
1 month ago
Cr4w, I don't know where you live, so don't know your day to day experience, but I find that the diversity in mountain biking is pretty variable depending on where you are. At least in BC "hot spots" there can be excellent diversity. There are days I ride in Cumberland or Pemberton and might see more women than men riding, just as two example. Being an old fart who rode in the 90's that's great and amazing. I get the feeling that there are places that this isn't the case. Maybe with continued efforts by everyone we can have mountain biking comfortable for everyone outside the hotspots. Your point about "growth" is 100% valid though.
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tashi
1 month ago
You and I don't, but the people who sell bikes and write about bikes do so I think mountain bike writing will always have some of that in there.
(Also mountain biking is awesome and a lot of folks think that's reason enough to "grow the sport". Not sure I'm one of them)
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Metacomet
1 month ago
Odd article. And I’m sorry to say that cause I was really trying to understand the angle and approach and play along, but it just felt like it fell quite flat and doesn’t really even say anything useful, and if anything was detrimental to your own message. In my mind it looked like grasping at analogies that fit your chosen ideologies.
Inclusivity is an odd thing when it comes to sports. I understand the motive to want to share this beautiful sport with more people. I really do, and I respect that tremendously.
However, to think about it for a moment, how does that happen, why should that happen, who should make that happen, and most importantly who benefits and why and how do you measure that in a meaningful way? And does it really even matter except to make people feel good?
If we really think about this without worrying about some silly university survey or any statistics and extrapolating something truly arbitrary.
Let’s just think about this in the realest real world sense. There are a couple things any participant in this sport will need to overcome as well as just inherently possess.
Mountain biking hardly has any real barriers to entry except one big one that I can think of, and frankly, your article never even mentioned it. The cost of a good bike is thee primary barrier that has kept out many people I know from participating in this sport both short and long term. Proximity to trails and transportation to trails is also a barrier.
But perhaps the biggest one is just what people personally care about and want to do with their own time and money. I’ve learned this myself over and over, and I’m sure others have too. Not everyone cares to try this sport no matter how much it would like them to and however much I may try. It really just is not for everyone, not even in the same family with the most similar preconditions possible, and we should never make the mistake of thinking that it can or even should be for everyone. Because Who the F am I or you to try and decide what someone else should be interested in and do with their time? That’s a personal thing with a million variable influences. If people of any background want to do this sport, there is nothing stoping them. If anything, if someone doesn’t look like the typical participant the whole of the observed bike world i have seen over the last 30 years seems to go out of their way to make sure that person is welcomed, almost to the point of exhaustion. It’s a great thing.
Just because there’s a perceived gap does not mean there is a real problem that we need to try and solve to feel better about that perceived gap and about ourselves. People have different interests and it is as cultural as it is personal. And that’s how it should be, cause that’s normal and natural and as powerful as any other force of nature. Don’t try and force some control over that or it will surely end in disaster.
But the cost of bikes? Fuck the cost of bikes. They’re fucking expensive as fuck and I know a ton of people who would do this sport if it wasn’t for that barrier.
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cheapondirt
1 month ago
I've had three coworkers in the last two years tell me, "that looks like fun but I can't afford it / don't want to spend on it."
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JVP
1 month ago
I'm with you on one of the biggest barriers to getting into MTB being bike cost. A bigger one is trail access. No one is going to get into a sport if they have to drive 60+ minutes to try it out. Most of our current trails popped up in wealthy areas where the bike/ski/climb culture was already there.
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Mark
1 month ago
@JVP I would say not so much for trails popping up in Metro Van and Squam. While the North Shore is wealthy, parts of it weren't when mtb started here. Things were definitely not wealthy from Pomo to Poco and beyond. Besides, mtb was much more dirtbag culture when it started up. It has become rich/elite in time. And while there is a barrier to entry with new top of the line bikes, decent appropriate starter bikes can be had in the $800-1200 range if someone has a friend who knows what to look for. People are being sold WAY TOO MUCH bike for when they are first just starting out.
I will plant my flag on the hill of "You don't need a top flight bike to have fun" and die there defending that idea.
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BarryW
1 month ago
Do you realize that telling most people that a 'starter' or 'entry level' bike is $800 to $1200 sounds insane?
Not to the people that ski, climb, sea or whitewater kayak and the like, but to the masses of people that don't ALREADY participate in significantly gear centric sport it is an unfathomable amount of money especially for a 'starter' piece of kit. And that's not counting the pedals, shoes, and other customizations that like a properly comfortable saddle.
THIS is the true barrier to the sport.
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Mark
1 month ago
Insane compared to what? Maybe the insanity is not comparing similar sports. Pretty much any sport that requires gear is going to be expensive. Maybe the insanity is this idea that a lot of society has about only focusing on price and trying to get everything as cheaply as possible instead of taking a little time to understand the true costs and value.
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BarryW
1 month ago
Compared to anything else in life. Literally.
You 'need' an $800 tennis racquet, nope.
You 'need' a pair of $800 running shows, nope.
You 'need' an $800 pan to cook good food, nope.
The list can continue endlessly.
Playing soccer or football are nowhere near as expensive for the end user. Nor baseball, hockey or anything other than certain gear centric outdoor sports.
And I'm telling you, talking about how much my budget bike was ($2,500 before I started upgrading) to people that I know make considerably more $$$$ than me always blows their minds. Unless they are ALREADY in a similar gear centric outdoor sport.
Mark
1 month ago
@BarryW it's perspective - the avg person in non-cycling centric places sees a bike as something that you get from a department store for $250. Their knowledge base is so poor that they can't comprehend what it costs to get something good. That's not insanity, that's ignorance.
BTW, you need to take hockey off your list, it's super expensive. Probably some of those other sports too once you add in the user fees.
rotorburn
4 weeks, 2 days ago
You're right, but that tends to be true of any sport that's as gear centric as this. 4x4 Off roading, sailing, diving. Once you get well into it, many sports these days demand a high price for quality gear. If you're just bouldering or going for a trail run - you're not in a gear centric sport, and thus this doesn't apply.
I will say there is an unjustified markup going on the MTB world, as is evidenced by the last couple years. Some of if it justified based on R&D and such, but most would agree there's a lot of profit being made. Or was, not sure how the overproduction glut is affecting things now.
I think it really is the prime factor keeping folks away. That, and just being scared of the danger/generally uninterested. Which I think is fine.
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Metacomet
1 month ago
You definitely don’t need a top flight bike, but if you plan on sticking with the sport and actually participating in it, not just starting or trying, you need a real bike that’s going to handle several years of serious riding abuse and misuse, all the maintenance that comes with it, all the gear and transport that comes with it and then best case you will still need to replace all those things just from wear at some point not too far down the road. My motto for mtb stuff has generally been don’t buy what you can’t afford to buy twice.
A good steel hardtail with a coil fork and good brakes and tires is about as inexpensive and maintenance free for a high performing mtb as you could reasonably ask for, and that’s still gonna cost several grand.
If you want a cheaper form of cycling you can do for a long time with a little investment, road or gravel is honestly a much better fit.
Mtb is jut not that easy to participate in financially speaking and personality wise. It’s a hard sport. You have to REALLY WANT to do this and take great joy in being out there in the middle of nowhere, often doing “ill-advised for your health” things if you’re going to stick with it.
Also, nobody gives two flying f’s if we are good at flying around in the woods on a bicycle. There is zero real-world clout there. Clout does not make people ride bikes and I think that crux is a ridiculous statement overall especially considering all the real barriers and zero reward risks involved. I don’t think I’ve ever encountered a single person in this sport who’s foremost reason for participating and progressing was just to look cool to others. They do it because they love it, and they love their own version of riding and progression.
If anything, this sport already makes us all super oddball outliers in a world primarily made up of ball sports. You spent how much on that bike so you can do what!?
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Mark
1 month ago
Fair point, but you can't deny that there is certainly an element of "look at how cool my fancy bike is so that makes me cool too" in mtb circles. It's kind of like buying street cred.
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Metacomet
1 month ago
There is most certainly an element of that. I’d also ask you to lean into your experience of the scenarios in which you’ve encountered that.
In my own experience, when I’ve seen that it seems like it’s usually from a more beginner rider that’s trying to appear like less of a beginner, and possibly make friends with and fit in with more experienced riders.
It can be a way to hide an insecurity. Or maybe they know they’re a beginner and are just buying what they believe to be their forever bike. Or maybe they just like nice stuff.
I can’t say what their motives for that are exactly, but that’s their own business anyway.
If they’re a nice person and stoked on riding, fucking more power to them. People genuinely stoked on riding, no matter the bike they’re riding, will always make riding friends. Cause they’re fun to be around.
The dick on a cool bike is probably just insecure, which is unfortunate since they’re just getting in their own way. Or maybe that’s exactly how they want to be and they don’t like being around others. Lol. People are complicated.
Kenny
1 month ago
That's just people, though, not an MTB thing. The statement "look how cool my _____ is, that makes me cool too." Applies to almost literally anything.
Timer
1 month ago
I see that kind of behaviour mostly in older riders who try and compensate for their declining/plateauing skill levels with ever more fancy gear. Or those for whom tinkering with gear is an integral part of the hobby.
Speaking of gear, if you look outside the pretty small S2S bubble, a lot of MTB is more XC-ish and can be done with much less expensive bikes, involves very little breaking of parts and protective gear. In Europe its even mostly quite easy to get to the trails by riding or public transit, so no need for expensive transport.
taprider
1 month ago
I agree with cost being a partial barrier. BUT the likely two biggest barriers are; (i) mountain biking is Type 2 Fun, and (ii) for the amount of effort required, mountain biking is not a good way to seek your fame and fortune.
Type 2 Fun: No matter what style subgroup, mountain biking requires lots of physical and mental effort, pain, exhaustion and/or injuries
Poor path to fame and fortune: To many people, if they are going to put lots of effort into an activity, they want payback that they can display to family, friends and the general population. Mountain biking has no "Clout" outside your clique.
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Mark
1 month ago
I agree on both points, less so on the fame/fortune part tho. I do think a big part of the reason people find it so fun is because of the risk/effort to reward ratio.
Years ago there was an article in one of the bike mags that considered the psychology of mtb and other adventure/adrenaline sports and posited an interesting reason as to why people are drawn to these sorts of activities. The argument was that humans evolved with a high level of danger in their lives, and of course escaping danger is rewarding, so in a way we need some danger or risk in our lives to feel fulfilled. As our current modern society is fairly comfortable it doesn't provide that feedback loop, so we need to seek it out. It's an interesting proposition and I'm tempted to spend some time scouring search databases for more info. I think it would also make an absolutely awesome article.
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taprider
1 month ago
E-bikes reduce the Type 2 Fun barrier, but maybe at the expense of how engaging the experience is to the soul.
Plato said that (paraphrased ) "adventure seekers are in a head long frenzy to flood their senses with tokens of beauty, but miss the essence of things and the transcendent beauty embedded in all things, their disparate experiences they see with senses and not the soul, their senses seek novelty because their soul’s are blind".
Maybe one does not miss as much of "the transcendent beauty embedded in all things", when working unassisted to the full limits of one's body and spirit.
Socrates said (paraphrased) "No one has the right to be an amateur in the matter of physical training. It is a shame for one to grow old without seeing the beauty and strength of which the body is capable"
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Mark
1 month ago
Loving the philosophical refs.
I agree that e-bikes reduce the type 2 fun barrier somewhat, but that opens up the possibility of making the experience more engaging to the soul if the user is not smashed physically. I honestly don't think there is a correct answer there, as the possible genetic permutations and socialization factors of a human are so large as to be essentially infinite.
It's like arguing what flavour of ice cream is best - there is no correct answer.
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Lu Kz
1 month ago
Mountain biking may seem like a Colony with it's current demographics but hopefully we'll be able to Reroute to Remain without being Lost to Apathy. I'm sure for some there will be No Love Lost but we shouldn't be too Cold during the Coerced Coexistence. Ultimately we'll have to make a well oiled Future Breed Machine or maybe sign the sport's Death Certificate.
--------------------
Fun aside, I'll just point out that the study kept 108 surveys and then automatically removed all of the respondents who were not heterosexual and male, leaving a sample size of 44. This suggests that the majority of the statistically significant sample size was in fact.... not respondents who identified as both heterosexual and male .
Having been to a hell of a lot of 'extreme' metal shows (intentionally not using the term Extreme Metal for all of the capital-N Nerds out there), the conclusion you pulled from it seemed reasonable to me, even though it clearly wasn't founded in the cited study (not to mention that the genre largely moved past 6 string guitars like, ages ago).
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fartymarty
1 month ago
I don't get the term "extreme metal" - it's all just metal with a billion different sub-genres.
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Lu Kz
1 month ago
According to the study, there are exactly 26 different subgenres of metal.
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fartymarty
1 month ago
RYM has 71 https://rateyourmusic.com/genres/
and that's not counting all the crossover stuff that could also be considered metal.
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Lu Kz
1 month ago
But Marty, RYM isn't published from a university!
I actually think that putting a number or strict definitions on music genres is really funny. I'm probably going to use that 26 number at some point elsewhere because it's hilarious. "Sir, I'm sorry, you can't listen to Structural because their unique blend of Melo-Tech Death isn't on the list!"
I am a capital-N Nerd in lots of ways, including metal, but I don't actually care to define bands or split hairs between albums or even particular tracks of any given band. I think extreme metal as they use it is generally a good descriptor for things that aren't like, Motley Crue, or Metallica, or Limp Bizkit (even though Wes Borland is a Chad). I think the study pretty clearly is intending to use it in the non-defined term sense as well, listing "progressive metal, neoclassical metal, thrash metal, death metal, and in some cases black metal", but without any sense of irony, Extreme Metal itself did not make the cut (Sorry Meshuggah).
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fartymarty
1 month ago
Fair point on RYM. Definitions are funny, like bike definitions...
It's still all just metal to me - altho the latest Dodsrit i'm currently listening to is classified under Punk as it Blackened Crust which isn't even metal. And Meshuggah is Djent - and that's it's own thing entirely :P
Fat_Tony_NJ
1 month ago
Lu Kz, Meshuggah is the Downcountry of Extreme Metal.
Lu Kz
1 month ago
@Fat_Tony, I'm not 100% sure what this means but I laughed nonetheless.
@fartymarty Djent fight! Djent fight!
Bikeryder85
1 month ago
I learned in college that there are two types of liars in this world: dishonest people.....and statisticians
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Offrhodes42
1 month ago
One of my favorites things I learned in college, that I still repeat today 30 years late, is when my Stats professor said "You can manipulate the data to get any answer you want.".
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Lu Kz
1 month ago
The available counterpoint to mine is to state that while the study did achieve a statistically significant number of respondents, statistical significance merely allows more robust statistical modelling to work and means that whatever results you find is more predictive of the overall population, it doesn't mean it is determinative of the overall population. So while the study only identified 44/108 respondents as both heterosexual and male, and the study is statistically significant (and notably, the authors never reach the conclusion that "the researchers (sic) determined that the folks who speed-shred their 6-strings is overwhelmingly heterosexual and male"), it can only do what the sample allows.
A broader sample or different polling method may have achieved different results. One could reasonably hypothesize that online spaces may have a lower ratio of heterosexual males to all others than say, your average 'extreme metal' concert at the Rickshaw, where perhaps non-heterosexual male persons might feel less inclined to attend in person.
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Timer
1 month ago
That would be like claiming that doctors are murderers because some of them mess things up.
You can’t “manipulate the data to get any answer you want” without other statisticians noticing.
The trouble is simply that the subject is too involved for the general public and for most scientists of other disciplines to be able to tell crap from proper work. Justt like in math, physics, law or medicine.
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Eastieboy
1 month ago
I'm gunna take a mea culpa on the AI images - I had to meet a deadline, and sourcing quality images that suited the spirit of the article was a challenge, to say the least. Lesson Learned.
But If anyone can find me a photo of an actual Rainbow Unicorn playing guitar over a sea of skulls, I'll happily use it! :)
- Richard
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Lu Kz
1 month ago
Hey, at least you're driving reader engagement.
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Pete Roggeman
1 month ago
I had a note typed out and lost it. The mea culpa is at least half mine, Richard, b/c I decided to run them. We probably could have figured something else out for the bearded guitarist and campfire group but that unicorn was always gonna get used.
Have to say, though, the alternative would be to use google to do an image search and a few brains might explode if I suggest that doing that is both 'lazier' (b/c it's faster and easier) and also...AI.
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NealWood
1 month ago
The unicorn is pretty dope. The other images nope.
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Pete Roggeman
1 month ago
We can find consensus here.
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Niels van Kampenhout
1 month ago
Ideally we would have had Cy paint that unicorn. I miss his contributions here.
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Adrian Bostock
1 month ago
This speed metal comparison might be true about how mountain biking is portrayed on the internet, but at least at my local trails it’s close to 50% women riding. While it’s changing, out side of Vancouver, BC is not very ethnically diverse. What are we looking for?
the 30-50 year old white male demographic is heavily represented in media, can be quiet obnoxious in the wild, toxic in the comment sections across the internet, and are not very interesting in general. that representation in the mountain bike media probably needs to change? but also maybe that’s who consumes the content?
I think we all understand that speed metal riding translates better into video then singing Kumbaya in the woods.
also not a fan of gratuitous use of AI images. yuck.
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Kenny
1 month ago
I am 42. When I was 12, my bike, the forest, was pure freedom. My body didn't hurt, and I didn't really get tired. I just rode.
Now I ride basically to try to feel like I'm 12 again. I mostly do. It's fucking awesome.
Clout? Caveman DNA? I don't know about any of that shit. Wierd article, honestly, at least from my vantage point.
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DadStillRides
1 month ago
Yeah, I think it was said best in the original Collective movie (was it Vanderham?) "I ride bikes because I haven't found anything else more fun." Hard to imagine many of the people doing any of the various subgenres of mtb or metal guitar would say, nah, I'm here for the clout.
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cxfahrer
1 month ago
As a fan of Missy Giove and Rob Halford in the 90s, I strongly disagree.
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Mark
1 month ago
Once people reach adulthood and make their way in the world, they are responsible for deciding whether they want to be caring, compassionate people or ignorant brutes. It's revealing that as children the vast majority of us don't have any biases and people are just people - things like race, ethnicity, gender, etc. don't matter. Unfortunately somewhere along the way, too many of us lose that innocence and differences become something to hate. So while people don't have to make that shift in internal dialogue they should. As is said in a few different ways, people can't be faulted for their upbringing or socialization, but as adults they are responsible for improving it.
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Fat_Tony_NJ
1 month ago
Tag line: "Photos Richard Belson". Richard, those are not photos.
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Pete Roggeman
1 month ago
Just for shits and giggles, I'm going to play a game with you, Tony (and/or anyone else who cares to answer) and I'll play the devil's advocate. I don't have a dog in this fight - truly - but the aversion to AI, while understandable, also opens up some interesting questions and I'd like to gauge some opinions. So here goes...
What is a photograph?
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Mark
1 month ago
An image of a real life event captured with a camera.
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Pete Roggeman
1 month ago
K, good. We can agree on that. But if that camera is contained within a phone that employs sophisticated technology to enhance the image (or even spit out images that are composites, done automatically and almost instantly), did the user really do anything other than point the camera and press click?
When do we cross the line from photographer into AI machine operator? Who's drawing that line and where does it sit?
*this is a series of hypotheticals and we have no plans to stop employing humans to write and shoot for us, but I think there's an interesting thing at play here that I'm curious to know more about. The AI we can't see isn't upsetting anyone, but the obvious (and arguably less harmful) stuff is getting a pretty harsh response.
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Mark
1 month ago
Disagree to a certain extent, as it's pretty common to see people complain about overly processed photos.
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Pete Roggeman
1 month ago
Yes, but what they're really complaining about are poorly processed photos.
BarryW
1 month ago
It's an interesting moment in time.
I feel this deep existential dread whenever a Google phone advertisement comes up. They literally are advertising removing reality from the pictures the phone takes. The 'magic eraser'.
So Pete, you're comments are sport on. We are living in a world where many (if not most) are not realistic representations of the scene they captured. It's...
Weird.
FlipSide
1 month ago
I'd venture to say that the harsh response is possibly related to the overabundance of these AI-generated images polluting our Facebook feed. These are garbage only used for the sake of generating more clicks and often misleading people.
Seeing these cringy AI images in an NSMB article was a big surprise. In my opinion, NSMB is one, if not THE most awesome mtb website for the quality of the writing and photos and I am sure most/all of your readership wishes that it stays that way.
I get that the intention was only to provide visual support to the text, which is fine, but with the unfortunate result of giving a cheap flavor to an otherwise very fine article.
The unicorn is indeed an excellent use of AI. The other images, not so much.
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Pete Roggeman
1 month ago
That's fair feedback and we are listening.
I wasn't aware of the issue with images on FB but that's a me problem - I think Facebook is one of the worst parts of the internet so I don't go there anymore except to look for good marketplace deals. It does, however, add context to the reaction.
Nicholas Haig-Arack
1 month ago
The most interesting thing about the rise of AI is the conversations it creates around what it means to be human. I think we're finding new value in art, poetry, music – all the human things that AI gets wrong, or just wrong enough to feel weird.
I'm an illustrator. I often I use digital tools on an iPad to create my drawings. I prefer to leave the so-called "imperfect" lines in my designs because I think my fellow humans prefer to see a human hand in the things that we appreciate. It's similar to the Japanese wabi-sabi or the Navajo ch'ihónít'i ("spirit line").
As a mountain biker, I love to ride trails that express the character of the person or people who built them. I also prefer to ride bikes that were built by people I know. I'm finding that having less technology in my life makes me happier. Speaking of which, I'm writing this on a laptop and it's a beautiful day outside. I think I'm going to go ride my bike.
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Timer
1 month ago
This discussion is at least as old as photoshop, probably as old as art itself.
What people tend to forget is that it doesn't matter much what process was used to obtain the image. The intent and final result are what matters.
And that is where AI images, for the most part, fall totally flat. The end results are ugly, uncanny, derivative or boring. The last two characteristics are inherent to the medium. By the nature of their training sets and their underlying math, LLMs always return the most common characteristics of the training data. And because they are so automated, artistic intent is often lost.
But with AI there is an even bigger problem: The whole moral dimension of all AI companies stealing other peoples work to sell as their product. Which in itself justifies boycotting all those products.
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Lu Kz
1 month ago
This is as much your fault for allowing us to do this on the website as it is mine for doing it, Pete, but this is a photograph:
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Pete Roggeman
1 month ago
This is the out of the box thinking I'm hear for.
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Mark
1 month ago
Louder for the people at the back please.
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tashi
1 month ago
LOOK AT THIS PHOTOGRAPH!
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Dave Smith
1 month ago
I have thoughts on Ai but I have the benefit of seeing it from a few angles.
In my day job, I've used Ai generated art for storyboards when I couldn't afford an artist and needed to illustrate an idea that I knew needed concept art to communicate. I feel like Richard was doing that here so I'm not as offended and wow is a unicorn playing a Flying V hard to ignore.
But...as a photographer, I would hope every opportunity was given to the NSMB photo team to illustrate this idea for the header image before resorting to concept art - the same goes for the header image of Nick Cage on Mike's most recent BWR. It would also mean that NSMB owns the image and avoids any sticky legal issues that may arise.
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Pete Roggeman
1 month ago
This is a case where there wasn't enough time to really workshop something original and there wasn't really budget assigned, either. We wouldn't have used an image like this for a piece where Deniz or someone else could have shot the image instead - definitely not looking to use AI to replace human creations. A lot of our editorial contributors don't also provide photos, so we have to either expand the budget in those cases or improvise.
Sports Illustrated was recently busted for representing AI-generated articles as genuine. They had even invented several names and pseudo identities that were not real people. That makes me sad on many levels. SI hasn't been anything like its proud predecessor for years - it has been kicked around between soulless media corporations almost as often as bike mag - but that was a new low. Unfortunately, I'm afraid that's something we'll all have to be more and more vigilant about. I'm sure someone will go out and take a stab at product reviews of serious products like cars or bikes via AI at some point (it's been happening for clothes and electronics and other things for years on amazon and elsewhere).
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Fat_Tony_NJ
1 month ago
Pete, I'll play! I'm a scientist. We used to take photographs. Photomicrographs, photos of gels and blots. Photos of cells. With a camera! Film cameras even. My baby pictures were also true photographs - taken on film!
When digital images came along, we knew they were not photographs. They were still "images", or "pictures" but way more open to manipulation for content, aesthetics, etc. But the colloquial "photograph" stuck. In the same way that you "dial" a cell phone. Different process; similar output.
Photoshop* (unfortunate name), came along and made it easier to manipulate the content of an image. And made us (the general public) way more skeptical of a photograph or image as a reliable source of info. I'll reference the crisis of image manipulation in science as close to home here.
AI image generation does not require a source image. And herein lies the issue. In cognitive space, a de novo created image is not a "photograph" or a manipulated or edited picture, or even a work of Photoshop. It's a de novo creation based upon an amalgamation of salient features of images and concepts, harvested by a computer, and assembled with only vague prompts by a user. That user may have some skill; the computer may have used an element of a photograph or image on the way, but the output is far away from the original concept of a "photograph". No camera, film, digital or otherwise, observed any of the "photos" events or people in this article.
I called out the header: "Photos Richard Belson". I promise that following a standard journalistic convention: "images by" or "AI generated images by" or "digital images by" would not have attracted much attention from me at all. Hopefully you get it? It could be all in my head. :)
*Photoshop has always bothered me as a name, as it never is used to manipulate photographs - it manipulates digital images, sometimes of photogrtaphs. :)
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GB
4 weeks, 1 day ago
Photo means light .
Graph means picture .
Any picture created by light projected either onto film , photo paper or a charged coupling device . Also called a CCD . Found in all digital cameras .
A.I. generated images are computer generated . No light involved in the process in creating the original image. No artistic creativity. Just a lazy fabrication.
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XXX_er
1 month ago
mtn biking is too hard/ expensive/ too scary/ pick your excuse for the people who don't do it otherwise they would be doing it, pretty much the same with skiing
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jhtopilko
1 month ago
No sport or hobby is for everyone, I would think that's obvious to any human. One of the worst articles I've gone through in a while.
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trumpstinyhands
1 month ago
Anyone who thinks speed metal is about race has never listened to Bad Brains.
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BarryW
1 month ago
It's an interesting article for NSMB as this seems like a very nice corner of the internet especially when it comes to riding with kids, friends etc.
Not saying we are all immune to negative vibes, but this feels a little like preaching to the choir.
And the AI 'art' crap is just that. Lazy.
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ackshunW
1 month ago
I think Richard went out on a limb with the metaphor (and straight past decency with the “art”), but I can absolutely appreciate what he’s getting at. Sometimes when trying to introduce someone new to riding, it can be hard to slow down and be a relatable human, at the expense of your shred. Certainly a lot of guys have “tried” to bring girlfriends or wives to the sport, and failed (myself included!)
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FlipSide
1 month ago
Introducing my (now) wife to mountainbiking a bit over 20 years ago was a total failure. She hurt herself a few times and hated every minute of riding on "easy" double-track trails full of baby head rocks. Eventually, she litterally threw her bike (2001 RM Spice) on the side of the trail screaming "FUCK THAT SHIT!!!" (Good times... ;) )
That was the Golden Age of mountain biking being an extremely difficult sport, riding on difficult trails on crappy bikes with horrible geometry.
I managed to convince my wife to give mountain biking another go in the past few years. She now loves it. The easy flow trails that can now be found in most trail centers essentially removed the obligatory couple of seasons of hurt and suffering that were unavoidable when you wanted to get into the sport 20 years ago.
These days, I swear it seems there are more ladies than dudes shredding at the trail center. (It's probably not the case, but it certainly looks like it). That's just awesome.
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rotorburn
4 weeks, 2 days ago
I remember coming back from every ride with blood streaming down my legs, covered in dust. Good times. But it definitely helps that new riders don't have to go through that anymore. Nor the obligatory endo right(s) of passage.
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Maximum Radness
1 month ago
Just food for thought:
are we actually accepting/reasonable high level interacting adults on a global scale, if we have to be told to be???
Is our community actually a community if we have to keep reminding our community that it’s a community?
A great friend of mine is bipoc and has created a bipoc mtb/outdoors centric community. They’re all there, knocking on the door and while I can see them, becasue I was raised that way;
-are the human white privileged men and women who buy fancy forest machine toys and weren’t raised that way, are they supposed to make this massive shift in internal dialogue ……. Becasue they’re supposed to?
-I personally think it’s important to read the room, and temper our expectations realistically. Because “we” can do all the shouting we want to, and I do believe it’s heard, but also “ all humans are scum “.
-And outside of a shared interest in hardtails and dank forests, our society has shown that convincingly for 2024 and beyond ……
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GB
1 month ago
This one goes to 11.
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BarryW
1 month ago
This is always a strange conversation for me.
I personally don't have much racist programming and I have my parents to thank for that. They grew up as conservative folk but in college had a broad range of friends and learned to not care about color/sex etc. And as a home schooled kid that's what I also learned.
Don't get me wrong, there are still lots of societal influence and we all have to make our own day to day decisions on how we treat each other. And it is my conscious decision to choose to intentionally treat people based on actions not skin color or sex.
But...
In my life experience I don't see many women wanting to take the big risks. I don't see many women signing up for the extreme epics, the insane type 2 fun moments in the same levels as men. And I say this with a background in very high level sea kayaking, sailboat racing on an extremely fast sailboat and not mtb.
I understand there might be, are and will be barriers to entry, be they psychological, physical or societal. But I also see the people who want it going for it and doing the things they truly want. Case in point: yesterday talking with two middle class, white co-workers they both said mtb was too hard, they didn't like slowing their friend down and it hurt to fall, so no more for them.
Now, for a woman, or someone of co'or there can be significant other barriers, but here were two comfort white boys saying it was not something they wanted to do because it was hard, because of their own insecurities. So how do we quantify the barriers for others?
I also like to encourage people to do my favorite things, but I don't know if it's a good fit for most of us. Maybe the ones that want it go for it, and maybe most of the rest of it (besides the very real barrier of cost, regardless of sex or color) is just choosing to or not to.
And I also want to note I am, and always will always be friendly to literally anyone on the trails. Hell, I'm even polite to ebikes on the trails. (I view them as idiot dupes, not evil people;-)
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rotorburn
4 weeks, 2 days ago
I too grew up sailing, I've done a lot of kayaking, and I've been riding bikes since before this site came online.
I sailed with a bunch of rad girls, easily 50/50 back then, and they took on those risks willingly, perhaps a little less eager than the guys, but not by much.
I've spent years mountain biking in Squamish. These days it's common to have more women than men at some of the meetups, though the thrill section has a smaller ration of w/m. I've introduced some women to MTB - some LOVED it, some whined the whole time - it really depends on the person and what they enjoy.
People are allowed to value and pursue different things and at different risk levels. Most people I meet could care less about riding, for a variety of factors: usually because they have other things that they're interested in more. We don't have to ensure that every activity has exactly the same proportion of people doing it as people in our society. Freedom means freedom to choose what you want, and if my Filipino buddy would rather play drums and practice MMA, who am I to try to change his mind?
"we need to move past the Speed Metal Shreddit and shake-in a periodic dash of Taylor Swift so more folks can feel comfortable giving riding a try" - we don't "need" to do anything. There's no _we_ either: mountain biking spans the gamut these days. Yes, there are a BUNCH of douchebags doing it. There's a lot of all kinds of people doing it. Sometimes I even get in conflict with arrogant, entitled people causing danger. There's no simple way to group (stereotype) them, and I'm sure as hell not going to take ownership over their shitty behaviour. And no one else should have to own my shitty behaviour when I've accidentally been a douche myself.
Enough of this group-ist, identity driven tribalism. Just do your best to be welcoming and have a good vibe - you know, like we used to do.
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Cee Cee
1 month ago
Refernceing stease sense 2100
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Pockets.the.coyote
1 month ago
Not a whole lot I'm gonna contribute this late to the article, but I can assure you there are far more that cis/straight/white guys in the less radio friendly metal scenes. I'd invite anyone the comes accross this to wander over and take a listen to Hell Bent for Metal with Tom and Matt, currently not an active podcast but a peek into the crowd so to speak.
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Armahillphre
3 weeks ago
It seems to me that this research has some skewed sampling because where I grew up, there were slightly fewer women than men in the local rock club. Moreover, those who started playing to "get the girl" quickly stopped doing so. Anyway, why attract more people? It's just a hobby, not a cult where you need to lure in with some imagined perks, and then whatever happens, happens. I interact politely and amiably with people not because they relate to my interest group, and not to draw them into this group. It should simply be a matter of upbringing. People will naturally gravitate towards what interests them. I would be more interested in seeing the correlation between musical preferences and personality traits. I thought https://essays.edubirdie.com/research-proposal-writing-service could provide a good justification for such a project. Look at the popular music now; I feel like its followers are mostly too infantile. Of course, it could just be my perception.
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tmoore
1 month ago
Some good discussion on this one although it seems the wider the NSMB audience gets, the greater the vitriol in the comments.
We are all Canucks, sorry
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BarryW
1 month ago
What vitriol have you seen on this discussion?
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