Vid: McCauls and Stevie Smith in BC

Posted by Jerry-Rig at 04:00 PM on 02-01-2012
Fox should be sending some SWAG to Digger.

Posted by partswhore at 06:39 PM on 02-01-2012
I was curious if the Anthill guys poached those stunts...

Same mountain, same behaviour as was done back in the early Kranked days...

Posted by Bryan at 07:31 PM on 02-01-2012
The last time I was in there things were looking pretty rough....is it really poaching if it's "x" years later? It also looks like they cleaned thing up a bit.

Any how many times has some of that stuff been filmed?

If I missed something that was recently built, I'll retract the above statement.

I guess you should be sending some swag to the parks board there hey Jerry?

Posted by Jerry-Rig at 09:45 PM on 02-01-2012
It would be a nice gesture by Fox for all his hard work, that's all.
Didn't know the parks board built any trails?

Posted by juan at 09:49 PM on 02-01-2012
What about trails on parklands?

Posted by GeoffH at 11:34 PM on 02-01-2012
1. those hits were built and filmed ages ago
2. does anyone want to watch the mccauls ride cbc to neds?
3. does everyone who'se ever go pro'd ladies owe digger swag?
4. doesn't everyone always talk about how stoked digger is to ride his stuff?
im not saying diggers not the man and, and we dont owe him a great deal.
but the gnarlier then thou, " i know more secret stuff on then you" vibe on the boards is a little out of hand

Posted by partswhore at 06:45 AM on 02-02-2012
Your points are not without merit however,

Fox is an enormous multi million dollar revenue a year organization.

Did anthill do that for free? No they were PAID.

Did the McCauls and Steve do it for free and just to spread stoke? No they are PAID riders.

This is not a grassroots go pro cam. This is a MARKETING video plain and simple from Fox saying buy "our stuff".

Even an "We're up in Vancouver riding some of the awesome stuff Digger has built" would be fine really.

You don't think Anthill know where a shit ton of secret trails are?

Flip the coin, if I got a contract to film and sell the video of "x rider" on the Coastal Crews line they just put in "From the Inside Out" without so much as a heads up and gladly pocketed the cheque would that be all fine and dandy? They already filmed it right?...

Posted by Guest at 07:14 AM on 02-02-2012
Who cares who and what was filmed where? What does it matter? If restitution and profit for riding "my" trails is the endgame, than buy the land they are located on and put up a gate and charge a toll, and be sure to include a big sign this was built by "me" for my benefit.

I appreciate the work doe by those whose only mission to provide trails for everyone's enjoyment.

Posted by Bryan at 07:27 AM on 02-02-2012
These lines are pretty old and have been filmed numerous times and you're gonna complain now?lol

Posted by partswhore at 08:09 AM on 02-02-2012
This isn't a complaint. You are missing the point.

It's an observation of a money machine not giving credit where it is due in their marketing campaign. That is obviously lost on the general public. Just an acknowledgement would show class IMO.

I'll just go back and watch another bullshit press release on Pinkbike or the front page here called as "news". Loved the Wade Raceface "article". :zzz:

Posted by Bryan at 09:10 AM on 02-02-2012
so what are you suggesting, some monetary value should be paid every time someone films on an old decrepit trail? Maybe it would be better if more one hit wonders were built, rather then old one being recycled. Last time I was in that area things were looking pretty sad, I'm willing to bet they looked better after they left. I'm all for respecting lines till they are filmed....but once filmed, it's an open trail.

Funny thing I can remember a certain someone laughing that they had poached someone's trail before they had finished the trail and thinking it was funny that the builder was pissed.

Posted by partswhore at 09:17 AM on 02-02-2012
Yeah you are still missing the point and that's fine. We can agree to disagree.

The real question is does Digger care? If not then whatever...

I never suggested a cash exchange happen. Just "acknowledgment".

Think of a bibliography. Professional courtesy really.

Posted by Bryan at 09:20 AM on 02-02-2012
I think cam filmed on that stuff with Drop In about 5 years ago, maybe he thought it would be ok to refilm. Maybe he did thank digger. I could see your point if it was a fresh trail, but some of the stuff is sooo old and has been filmed numerous times.

Posted by shirk at 10:05 AM on 02-02-2012
An music artist gets a residual each time someone uses their work for profit. Would be pretty sweet if trail builders did get a little kick back each time their work was used for profit.

Posted by FlipFantasia at 10:11 AM on 02-02-2012
holy hell, that was a cool edit and this is what you guys talk about? looks like they spruced stuff up and left it better than they found it. there's something to be said for that.

Posted by Bryan at 11:00 AM on 02-02-2012
^this

Posted by partswhore at 11:38 AM on 02-02-2012
You're right, I will not look beyond the surface of any advertising/commercial in the future.

Ignorance is bliss. :rolleyes:

I'm now running down to my lbs to buy some fox clothing too.

Posted by FlipFantasia at 11:41 AM on 02-02-2012
wtf are you on about? what am I ignorant about? they rode some old trails and stunts, appears that they fixed up trannies on said old stunts. so they have to pay off digger? I'm a big supporter of trail builders, believe me, but I think you're making a big deal out of something that really isn't that big a deal.

Posted by Jerry-Rig at 11:41 AM on 02-02-2012
it wouldn't be there without the original trail builder. Something to be said about that.

Posted by Woodro at 11:54 AM on 02-02-2012
I don't think Digger has any problem with people riding his stunts.
The problem is in the commercial usage of his builds without the respect of asking permission or giving recognition, regardless when they were built or what state they're in.
Starting to see lots of Americans come up here, film as they please with little to no consideration of the political 'lay of the land' or respect for the builders. Something to be said about that.

Posted by partswhore at 11:55 AM on 02-02-2012
WTF are you on about? I didn't call you ignorant. Read carefully.

Watching advertising with a non critical eye was what I was calling ignorant.

I forgot this wasn't a discussion forum...

Posted by FlipFantasia at 12:02 PM on 02-02-2012
get over yourself, I'm not an idiot, I understand what advertising is and how it's done. All I'm saying is that if this is such an issue at his point than pretty much any advertising done since the inception of mountain biking owes builders back credit. To single out Fox here doesn't really make sense.

Posted by Bryan at 12:06 PM on 02-02-2012
Hmmm I wonder if digger has ever filmed on something without permission, consent or props to and from the builder? The answer is yes.

Posted by Bryan at 12:07 PM on 02-02-2012
I'm sure parks totally agrees with you. Lol

Posted by partswhore at 12:18 PM on 02-02-2012
Actually you are proving otherwise.

I NOT ONCE stated that cash should be exchanged.
I simply stated, and quite a few times in this thread actually, that the work done by another should have been acknowledged.

Sorry to disagree with the mighty Todd Hellinga. Oh wait, no I'm not.

Posted by Bryan at 12:26 PM on 02-02-2012
But if digger himself won't do it, what does that say?

Posted by GeoffH at 12:47 PM on 02-02-2012
Who'se to say the mccauls from california knew that digger built said stunts. And if people are going to rain shit on anthill they built a ton of stuff on the mountain in question for follow me.
Cam went to a line, he knew existed from drop in, buffed it so it was smooth and rideable again then filmed it for a video, which is his job.

I can see where woodro's coming from, in the context of the recent bradwalton video, where a hush hush trail was filmed in the pissing wet. But for the most part, these are guys on a roadtrip trying to ride and film the goods, anywhere else in the world people would get stoked on seeing some incredibly talented pro's shred there local mountain. But apparently on the shore no one is aloud to ride "our mountain."

pretty shitty attitude for a growing sport if you ask me

Posted by FlipFantasia at 12:50 PM on 02-02-2012
'mighty'? what's your deal, man? I never said anything about cash. My point stands, to single out Fox in this regard does not make one iota of sense. I believe that piling shit on them for filming on old trails, that they appear to have spruced up (lots of fresh dirt on trannies), is uncalled for. Guess I owe a whole lot of builders, known and unknown, a lot of credit for taking pictures on trails and posting them on the interweb. Oh, but I have thanked some of them in person before, so does that make it okay? Calling out my real name, that's a real classy move too.

Posted by Guest at 12:54 PM on 02-02-2012
huge props to all builders, but don't build if you don't want someone else to ride, pretty sure Digger doesn't give a sh*t, he never built for fame and money......this is one of the silliest threads in ages...and i guess i just added to it, oops.

Posted by DaveM at 12:58 PM on 02-02-2012
cool vid

you guys should all just hug it out.

Posted by GladePlayboy at 01:01 PM on 02-02-2012
Yes, a group hug is in order... I liked the vid, props to Digger. Is everyone happy?

Posted by partswhore at 01:02 PM on 02-02-2012
Oh wah, I express my opinion about your buddies paid infomercial and you have a tantrum.

My name's Collin Burke btw.

It's no secret to most.

It's also a "discussion" so get over it. I did not "pile shit" on Anthill. I merely wondered, if you read my first post in this thread, if any professional courtesy was done in the making of this video.

Maybe there was? I don't actually know.

Posted by FlipFantasia at 01:07 PM on 02-02-2012
tantrum? hahahah, and they're not my buddies, in fact I know none of them on any level.

edit, I take that back, I guess I know Jonathan casually, but rarely talk to him

Posted by GladePlayboy at 01:18 PM on 02-02-2012
Awesome, now this whole thread makes sense.

Posted by partswhore at 01:21 PM on 02-02-2012
That's awesome, thanks Dave. Lol.

Posted by connor at 01:28 PM on 02-02-2012
"Copyright may apply to a wide range of creative, intellectual, or artistic forms, or "works". Specifics vary by jurisdiction, but these can include poems, theses, plays, other literary works, movies, dances, musical compositions, audio recordings, paintings, drawings, sculptures, photographs, software, radio and television broadcasts, and industrial designs. Graphic designs and industrial designs may have separate or overlapping laws applied to them in some jurisdictions"


hmmm...

Posted by Henry Chinaski at 01:35 PM on 02-02-2012

Steve Smith is as Canadian as they come. The Americans don't find the trails on their own. If there is something to be said, then someone should say it.

Regardless, I think it's great that people look out for Digger in these instances. It would obviously be a professional courtesy for FOX to acknowledge his efforts.

Posted by cam@nsmb.com at 02:23 PM on 02-02-2012
I find it pretty easy to see both sides of this discussion which makes it puzzling why so few of you are able to. And it's certainly a topic worthy of discussion.

Who can argue that it would show some respect to acknowledge trail builders when their work is filmed? Clearly this isn't a requirement, and in some cases the builders would prefer not to be outed for many different reasons. When possible though it would certainly be a nice gesture.

Is this a requirement? Are their laws? Of course not but like acknowledging a musical artist it would be appreciated by most when appropriate. There have been times when we (nsmb) have done this and others when we haven't and I think it's something to strive for.

Perhaps the vitriol and esarc can be toned down some. Partswhore has for the most part been quite civil but some of those on the other side of the discussion seem a little touchy. Let's keep this a place where opposing views can be presented without fear of a backlash. There are intelligent people out there whose views are going to be across the fence from yours.

Posted by Sparkplug at 03:32 PM on 02-02-2012
This was going to me my contribution to this thread. Although the riding public may know who built a trail, the builder may not want official recognition, especially if said trail(s) are illegal.

As a general rule, I would hope that people would get permission from a builder, however informally, before widely distributing a piece for business or profit. For all we know, this did take place in this scenario.

Posted by SubPlop at 05:24 PM on 02-02-2012
You know you got it good when your droppin your rig into a pool!

Posted by juan at 07:06 PM on 02-02-2012
There are two sides to this for sure. But lets face it 90% of MTB trails are illegal. They are built on land that the builder does not own, period.
Some of the recent vids I have seen show some sweet alpine riding high above squamish. Was BC parks paid? I doubt it. MTB's go in build a line and film it. There is a process to filming and such in a provincial park.

In most other industry everyone gets a slice of the pie. Permits are obtained and the filming begins. MTBing which wants to be taken so seriously, still thinks it can just go punch a trail in. Anywhere the builder sees fit.
There is a sense of entitlement in the Biking community. People seem to think they can build a trail and it should be accepted by the masses and deemed ok.



My girfriend and I hiked the darksyde last year and low and behold we find a rather large branded bike company doing photo shoots! Illegal trails. No permits, doing whatever they want. I have friends in BC parks and checked into it. Permits are how parks makes money.

This is exactly what is wrong with the industry. Taking way more than it gives back.

Now people think that royalties should be paid to the builders! Give me a break. Builders want financial restitution for what they do? They should go buy their own land and build trails there. Simple as that.

Posted by BRT at 08:43 PM on 02-02-2012
Just skimmed over this thread. For your information Anthill did contact the the builder in Squamish and if you look carefully you can see the builder is actually shuttling the guys up to film/ride the trails. The trails exist to ride/shoot and do whatever with respect to other user groups. I'm sure the builders on the shore are aware of riders filming there work... Nothing in the video is brand new. It was great to watch a quality video for free, thank you Fox. Watching these guys ride our home town trails is a treat.

Posted by leftcoastloam at 12:49 AM on 02-03-2012
you know its winter on NSMB when...

Posted by Ollie Jones at 05:53 PM on 02-03-2012
This is the best thread I have come across in a wile. Its nice to know people are taking trail builders into consideration. I didnt build that jump in Squamish but I certainly gave it a makeover and made it rideable. This doesnt make me angry that riders who make money, shot and filmed it. I feel like my work are now reached its full potential and I am happy that my work is good enough for paid riders to ride.

Posted by B.O.B at 04:53 PM on 02-05-2012

Hmmm . . .

Let's see, buy a large chunk of land, build a challenging trail or trails, accept liability and invite everyone to ride it.
Give your head a shake buddy.

Posted by juan at 06:34 PM on 02-05-2012
No you're right BOB.
Lets keep building illegally and pissing off other user groups.
Because we are mountain bikers, gods gift to the forest.
And we deserve it all!
Thanks for the advice though

Posted by biking_cam at 10:18 AM on 02-07-2012
All threads on here regarding anything to do with the trails on the Shore seem to turn ugly pretty fast...

Posted by Guest at 11:00 PM on 02-10-2012
Regarding royalties to builders. It seems to me that a builder creates something new from raw materials, labour and imagination. Pretty similar to most other copyrighted stuff out there (music,books,movies etc.) Would a musician let You use one of his songs to advertise Your products without compensation? I think everyone can see it would be silly? A similar approach seems rather logical regarding trail building.
On trails that are located on public land (I'm thinking Squamish) then the builder gladly welcomes others to ride his creations because clearly he doesn't own rights to trail access (which should belong to everyone really) but IMO owns rights if his creations are used to make a PROFIT. Profits should help grow the trail network as ultimately, no one will buy a bike if there is nothing to ride. This could only benefit everyone as builders see a better incentive to create stuff, companies have stunts/trails to showcase athletes and the general public has more stuff to ride. I think it's time companies around the world start taking a more responsible approach to doing business. Spread the goodness around more please!! Creating trails is dirty, hard work and deserves maybe more than recognition sometimes...