Shore XTC - New Old School?

Big Trails, Little Bikes

Words by Mark Wood. Photos by Mark Wood.
Date: 2011-12-14

Shore XC? Not much in these parts. Well, not by most people’s standards anyway. Here on the Shore we have little that can be described as pure cross-country other than little bits and pieces scattered about. Certainly nothing that compares to Whistler’s Lost Lake network, or Valleycliffe in Squamish, and most definitely nothing like the Nimby in Pemby. What we do have however are three peaks, each with their own distinctive character, and each with countless trails. If you know where to look these lines can be strung together into some incomparable epics. What’s par for the course is the severity of terrain you can expect to encounter on any big ‘XC’ loop. Like Digger says, “Get ready for the mud & the crud & the bud & the blood.” Many locals are desperately seeking, and finding, long days in the saddle. They are pushing their short travel bikes to the edge, mixing a helping of cross-country, all mountain, freeride and dh into every ride. Throw it all in a blender, add a shovel full of rocks, and you end up with a conglomerate that is greater than the sum of its parts. It’s a unique combination that defines the Shore.  

shore xtc, wade simmons, arthur gaillot, jeff bryson, rocky mountain, 2012 element
  Our XC doesn’t look like your XC. Jeff Bryson riding Lowe Ladies (generally rated double black - this trail has no easy options). Photo: Mark Wood

Traditionally, Shore riders have sworn by the overweight and overbuilt, for fear that anything less will fail when it counts most. Grinding a 45-pound tank up for an hour only to relish 10 minutes of steep, fall line chunder, has left many wanting more. With the advent of lighter, stronger and more capable machines, boundaries are being pushed. Sub 30-pounds, slack head angles, low BBs and short stays are the perfect recipe. Now that same climb takes half the time, and if you’ve got the skills to back up your fitness, these stealthy and responsive new age rigs offer arguably greater returns on the descent. With less travel and dialled geometry, these short travel bikes are proving more capable than anyone imagined, opening a mountain of possibilities. Or, to be more precise, 3 mountains of possibilities.

shore xtc, wade simmons, arthur gaillot, jeff bryson, rocky mountain, 2012 element
  Sampling IMBA’s recent work, Gaillot slices through a burned out log. Who knew sustainability could feel so good. Rider: Arthur Gaillot. Photo: Mark Wood

Little bikes pedal better than big bikes (this just in...)
“I couldn’t understand it, Grant would drop me on the climbs every time, but he wouldn’t be far behind on the descents.” Jeff Bryson, a Canada Cup DH racer who hopes to make it to Quebec for World Champ’s next year, explains what spurred him on to drop his 6-inch travel Enduro for a 5-inch travel Stumpjumper EVO. It’s seems like a Trump-worthy transaction. You can climb far better on a short travel bike, with little handicap on the descent. Bryson pushes that little bike to its limits, smashing through the chunder on Fromme, counter steering sideways into Digger’s berms, even getting the long double at the end of Ladies. He’s proving you don’t need a big bike to handle the Shore anymore. Well, some of it anyways. What helps is having the skills to pull it off. 

“Its all there, you just need to get creative.” Arthur Gaillot seeks out unique training loops to get him conditioned for the All Mountain race circuit. Not always able to head to the Sunshine Coast or Squamish for ideal XC training conditions, necessity has bred his inventive approach. Riding with a solid crew of pedal heads has helped. With decades of local knowledge, Andreas Hestler and Wade Simmons share an enviable combination of goat-like climbing skills and smooth, aggressive descending prowess, hammering steep and technical in both directions. 

shore xtc, wade simmons, arthur gaillot, jeff bryson, rocky mountain, 2012 element
  XC?  XTC Rider: Jeff Bryson. Photo: Mark Wood

“I ride Mystery DH on my XC bike,” Wade declares. “Just because I’m going for a pedal doesn’t mean I don’t want to have fun.” Today we’re traversing from Fromme to Cypress. Simmons pulls ahead on a sub 25lb 5” travel carbon fibre Element. Dre is on a 2012 Element 29er and he circles back to check me for a pulse. “C’mon Woodsy!” I lag behind with my 30lb Mojo, a solid climber in its own right, which means my tardiness has more to do with the pilot. I drift into numb submission and watch them gradually pull away, a common occurrence when climbing with these elites. Few people know that Simmons began his pro career in XC. Wade figures my 2.35 tires are the culprit, causing unnecessary drag. I couldn’t fathom anything less for the descents we are about to hit. 

shore xtc, wade simmons, arthur gaillot, jeff bryson, rocky mountain, 2012 element
  "5 inches is all it takes to get the job done," he insists. Photo: Mark Wood

The circuit today is to cross Cleveland Dam from Fromme, climb Millstream, up Cypress road, traverse across the top then hit 2000+ft of steep and technical vert. If that’s not enough, we grind back up again on steep, loose baby heads for another half hour to get another 1500 feet of descent. The ride finishes off on an old freeride favourite, complete with rickety wood to wood stunts, and these guys hit every gap and platform drop, making you question what constitutes an ‘XC’ bike these days. “They’ve got the angles dialled on these bikes now!” Wade believes with the right geometry, impossible is nothing, it only depends on who’s driving. Half lids, sans armour, they’ve been riding the Shore for a long time, where most would have full body armour and full face helmets. Two-hour hammerfests and they probably won’t bring anything more than a waterbottle.  Double black sections in the middle of these blue circuits are expected, and welcomed. They’ve created a style that’s not for the feint of heart, or lungs for that matter.

shore xtc, wade simmons, arthur gaillot, jeff bryson, rocky mountain, 2012 element
  Hestler has been hustling big loops on the Shore for a long time, and now with big hoops.  Good luck keeping up on the tech climbs, unless you're a goat. Rider: Andreas Hestler. Photo: Mark Wood

Unlike most other riding destinations, purpose built XC options are rare on the Shore. Sure there’s Bridle Path and a small handful of offshoots, Richard Juryn loop and some short link ups in the Blair Range Project, but without some solid local knowledge to connect the dots, there’s nothing that presents itself at first glance. And be forewarned, when you begin to link things up, loops usually start at Expert and go up from there. Big Shore loops threaten to snap light-weight XC frames, taco 400g rims, and chew through carbon. With a continued decade-long moratorium on new trail building, necessity continues to fuel inventiveness. It’s called Environmental Determinism: the physical landscape determines the culture.

shore xtc, wade simmons, arthur gaillot, jeff bryson, rocky mountain, 2012 element
  Bottom bracket clearance can be an issue on Shore XTC rides. Unless of course you've got big wheels and an XL frame. Rider: Arthur Gaillot Photo: Mark Wood

Part of this redefinition is the skill set necessary to adapt and overcome. Many riders here started on big bikes, hucking and dropping their way through stunt filled trails. As trails change and stunts rot out, what we ride and the way we ride is changing as well. Looking back at videos from 10+ years ago, guys like Simmons and Shandro had already tuned into it, years ahead of the rest of us. “You’ve got to get your speed up and plane above the roots, otherwise you wallow in the holes,” Wade explains. Many have brought those big bike skills along with them on this journey, although even those skills have morphed; yet they serve as part of the translation for this new attack strategy. We’re riding faster, smoother, clipped in, staying light on the trail, and shralping corners with wide bars and short stems. Today it’s more about jump & jive & boost & pop where it used to be plough & slam & grind & chop.

shore xtc, wade simmons, arthur gaillot, jeff bryson, rocky mountain, 2012 element
  Always ride with a buddy, preferably one who can keep up. Never XTC alone. Photo:Mark Wood

Have we changed or is it the Shore? Despite the vocal minority who insist the Shore is being dumbed down, there’s still plenty of gnar around for everyone. In fact, its undoubtedly increased in our recent past, considering the bones are more exposed with every rainfall. Erosion continues to outpace our ability to keep up, exposing the boulder filled glacial till beneath the dirt. But TAP (the nsmbA’s Trail Adoption Plan) is slowly changing that, reconstituting trails to their original state, ironically enough. Bringing us back to where we began, minus the drops to flat and with a new set of skills. The Shore may not have changed, but we have, and so have the bikes.

shore xtc, wade simmons, arthur gaillot, jeff bryson, rocky mountain, 2012 element
  Traversing lower Fromme for an early morning commute. Riders: Dave McInnis & Jeff Bryson. Photo: Mark Wood

Now that we’re rolling into the wet season many riders hang up their big bikes and get their pedal on. Big bikes may not be collecting dust but our ‘little bikes’ seem more capable than they’ve ever been. No longer satisfied with just an hour in the saddle, we’re hitting Ladies, cutting across the Baden to Lower Ladies, riding out Griffen, traversing Twin Bridges to Seymour, hitting Ridge Runner, a quick romp through Sticks & Stones on the way up to TNT, then Dale’s and climb up to C Buster. This could hardly be considered an XC ride but you’ll be hard pressed to complete that route on a 40lb bike before the sun goes down. 

shore xtc, wade simmons, arthur gaillot, jeff bryson, rocky mountain, 2012 element
  There is some XC, just not a lot of it. Rider: Brian McCurdy Photo: Mark Wood

Bikes seem to have caught up with our new style of riding. Or is our new style of riding morphing because of the introduction of lighter, stronger, more capable machines? I like that we are redefining how we ride the Shore, yet this new style is in fact eluding definition. There are few single-disciplined riders here. To ride the Shore requires a versatile skill set and these circuits are serious technical endeavours that require strong legs, big lungs and committed line choice.

Riders and trails are evolving together and, serendipitously, two-wheeled Darwinism has delivered the bikes to make it happen, at just the right time.
 
Shore XTC.


Do you ride this way? Have you been riding this way since the late 80s? Do you have a name for these kinds of rides? XXXC? X Country? (make an X with your forearms when you say that). Any routes you'd like to share?

Comments


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Posted by boomforeal at 12:32 AM on 12-15-2011
part of nsmb's new htfu series?

edit: whatever, phenomenal writing; enjoyed this article a lot!
Posted by JCL at 12:37 AM on 12-15-2011
It's great that more people are talking about XTC or 'cross transexual culture'. Arthur being the poster guy with those socks is just fantastic.
Posted by Guest at 12:59 AM on 12-15-2011
The shore has its fair share of relentless ups and downs, rarely is there anything in between. I find the smaller bikes have a way of keeping you honest. You either have the skills or you're chopped liver, or you find yourself riding alone by the end of a group ride. NS 'XXXC' riding opens you up to a world of possibilities. The skills gained here will travel anywhere.
Posted by Guest at 05:40 AM on 12-15-2011
More Dave!
Posted by Guest at 06:06 AM on 12-15-2011
The terrain up here in Squampton undulates providing every loop with ample climbing vs descent. I've been using the dh rig on this foe years calling it "big bike xc".Now that I've landed an am bike it seems that I push it harder on the down hill vert, "little bike dh" perhaps.
Posted by taprider at 07:36 AM on 12-15-2011
Great article
it's Déjà vu all over again
it's what local xc riding was in the 1980s (and 1990s and 2000s...) anyway, back in the olden days, people rode xc and DH on the same bike (but without as much air time or downhill speed)
and who says xc is supposed to be low skill, you can have green to black diamond xc trails just like xc skiing
so stick it to Mtn Bike Action and call our riding Black Diamond Cross Country
Posted by Sharon at 08:23 AM on 12-15-2011
Good article.

This kind of riding is what we focussed on with the suggested rides in the Locals' Guide!

It's there if you look for it. Or buy the locals' Guide and you'll get a good introduction!
Posted by biggles604 at 08:31 AM on 12-15-2011
I've been trying to tell people that little bikes are more fun. Make the down harder, and the up more enjoyable, and the riding experience is so much better in my opinion. It seems like more and more share that opinion now.
Posted by Guest at 09:08 AM on 12-15-2011
Great story, Mark! Really enjoyed the read, pics, and input from a range of solid Vancouver riders. Pity someone had to use this article as an opportunity to self-promote their for-profit book in the Comments.
Posted by Sharon at 09:24 AM on 12-15-2011
Quote:

Originally Posted by Guest (Post 2598469)
Great story, Mark! Really enjoyed the read, pics, and input from a range of solid Vancouver riders. Pity someone had to use this article as an opportunity to self-promote their for-profit book in the Comments.

LOL!
Posted by Guest at 09:28 AM on 12-15-2011
Dumbing down is dumbing down even if you have a mild facility for dissembling and an ability to say, like an alchemist, that tin is gold if we just describe it properly.

Shortsighted notion, the "grow the sport" angle. MTB will continue without such efforts at "growing" and no sport is "progressed" by dumbing down, or by making the unskilled feel superior.

Maybe Whistler/Blackcomb should destroy the steeps and chutes because they intimidate rookie skiers and boarders? Wouldn't that "grow the sport" making unskilled snowriders feel "expert"? Let's flatten everything!
Posted by cam@nsmb.com at 10:07 AM on 12-15-2011
Quote:

Originally Posted by Guest (Post 2598476)
Dumbing down is dumbing down even if you have a mild facility for dissembling and an ability to say, like an alchemist, that tin is gold if we just describe it properly.

Shortsighted notion, the "grow the sport" angle. MTB will continue without such efforts at "growing" and no sport is "progressed" by dumbing down, or by making the unskilled feel superior.

Maybe Whistler/Blackcomb should destroy the steeps and chutes because they intimidate rookie skiers and boarders? Wouldn't that "grow the sport" making unskilled snowriders feel "expert"? Let's flatten everything!

I"m not sure that's a perfect analogy. Trail builders haven't been destroying chutes and steeps to my knowledge.

We'd also love to hear an example of what you are talking about. Maybe something specific rather than vague accusations. It seems most of the trails around here, even those that have been worked on, are challenging enough for unskilled riders like Wade Simmons and Arthur Gaillot - to name just a few. But perhaps you could show them a thing or two.

Anyway, please humour us with some specifics of trails that have been 'dumbed down' by your estimation.

We're standing by.
Posted by Oldfart at 10:12 AM on 12-15-2011
It is how I have been riding since I started in the early 80's. As have many others. This is what mountain biking is. This does not need so called progression into more and more specialized equipment and skills.

There is a sort of philosophical reasoning here. What does a rider look for in terms of fun? Speed? What is speed? Is a certain kph or is it a certain feeling? What i mean by that is, what feels faster, 140 kph in Chevy Sprint or 140 kph in a large Mercedes sedan? It is relative. For me I am looking for is not kph but the adrenaline of going as fast as I dare on whatever bike I am riding.
Posted by connor at 10:14 AM on 12-15-2011
yeah, it's called bike riding..
Posted by Dean W at 10:14 AM on 12-15-2011
I bought a little bike a year ago to replace my hard tail and couldn't be happier.
Posted by Guest at 10:27 AM on 12-15-2011
I think it's the big bikes that have dumbed down the shore. Ride the same trails on a smaller bike and we'll see what skills you have.
Posted by Buster Bluth at 10:42 AM on 12-15-2011
This is a good read. It also has me questioning what I need for my next bike. :ohthedrama:
Posted by DrewM at 10:53 AM on 12-15-2011
Quote:

Originally Posted by Buster Bluth (Post 2598503)
This is a good read. It also has me questioning what I need for my next bike. :ohthedrama:

Fully Rigid... it is the obvious evolution of this trend.

-D
Posted by biggles604 at 10:56 AM on 12-15-2011
Quote:

Originally Posted by Oldfart (Post 2598492)
It is how I have been riding since I started in the early 80's. As have many others. This is what mountain biking is. This does not need so called progression into more and more specialized equipment and skills.

There is a sort of philosophical reasoning here. What does a rider look for in terms of fun? Speed? What is speed? Is a certain kph or is it a certain feeling? What i mean by that is, what feels faster, 140 kph in Chevy Sprint or 140 kph in a large Mercedes sedan? It is relative. For me I am looking for is not kph but the adrenaline of going as fast as I dare on whatever bike I am riding.

Exactly what I've been telling people. You can add more challenge, and more thrill by riding a smaller bike on the same trails, and then you can make the rides longer because you can pedal further. Big bikes are a bit of a crutch, you can really use them to plow through stuff that would ordinarily need a bit of finesse to get through.


Anyone who thinks that a trail is being dumbed down needs to get out there and ride the same trail on a hardtail!
Posted by go gadget go at 11:26 AM on 12-15-2011
I used to call it aggressive xc, or extreme xc when that was a popular word.
Like a few others here I've been riding this way for 15 years, on a hardtail. I've eschewed full suspension and 29'ers (full disclosure: I've owned an Outland VPP-a fream i still own, in storage-and a Kona Stinky Primo which I rode and race dh for 2-3 years then sold). All those do is make it easier. Why would I want bigger wheels or 6" of travel to smooth out the trail? I'd go for a road ride if I wanted that. I don't ride trails because its easy. I ride for the challenge.
I've ridden national and world cup dh courses on my hardtail. Sure it wasn't as fast and I didn't ride all the jumps and drops, but it didn't make it less challenging and I didn't break my neck either.
Posted by Mic at 11:29 AM on 12-15-2011
I truly enjoyed reading this little gem - I am now in need of a healthy dose of epic uphill and technical downhill sections....but no time, and am really itching for the new hardtail.

Sometimes you guys publish an article that really gives me a certain kind of buzz.
Thanks!
Posted by shirk at 11:42 AM on 12-15-2011
This really is just what mountain biking is and has always been for me. Nothing new here. Plenty of people have been riding everything on smaller bikes, half lids and next to no armour for years.
Posted by JCL at 11:48 AM on 12-15-2011
No it is brand new and called XTC!

29er essential.
Posted by shirk at 12:43 PM on 12-15-2011
Quote:

Originally Posted by JCL (Post 2598526)
No it is brand new and called XTC!

Is XTC more or less gnar than AM? Does it require a different bike than AM?

Will mtbr have a specific XTC sub forum so we can debate the specifics of what is and what is not XTC and keep the AM riff raff out.

Can we make the funny little roadie hats with the brim part of the official XTC uniform? I like those hats.

Oh almost forgot is spandex allowed in this XTC world?
Posted by Woodro at 12:46 PM on 12-15-2011
Quote:

Originally Posted by shirk (Post 2598524)
This really is just what mountain biking is and has always been for me. Nothing new here. Plenty of people have been riding everything on smaller bikes, half lids and next to no armour for years.

Yes but we're riding differently now (at least I am and the guys I'm riding with are), and the bikes we have are much different now that angles/suspension/geo has been dialled.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JCL (Post 2598526)
No it is brand new and called XTC!

29er essential.

Its not new for some, but the new modern incarnation of it is a bit different now.
29er not essential. Wade, me and Mike were all on 26ers, Dre was the only one on a 29er but he shredded on the descents. Its all about what you want to ride. Ride what you want, how you want.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oldfart (Post 2598492)
It is how I have been riding since I started in the early 80's. As have many others. This is what mountain biking is. This does not need so called progression into more and more specialized equipment and skills.

There is a sort of philosophical reasoning here. What does a rider look for in terms of fun? Speed? What is speed? Is a certain kph or is it a certain feeling? What i mean by that is, what feels faster, 140 kph in Chevy Sprint or 140 kph in a large Mercedes sedan? It is relative. For me I am looking for is not kph but the adrenaline of going as fast as I dare on whatever bike I am riding.

I ride with the odd old schooler (you could throw me in there too!) who doesn't lower their seat and is on a h/t or light travel bike (you can't throw me in there!), hell it might be you by the sounds of it Andy. Yes, you've been riding big loops for longer than most, but now people are riding those big loops and killing it on the descents as well as the climbs (not saying you don't) in a new school way; staying light, boosting over things, hitting jumps, drops...basically incorporating dh skills into big XC loops. New bikes, new style, old Shore.

Quote:

Originally Posted by connor (Post 2598494)
yeah, it's called bike riding..

Sometimes Connor, other times not at all, like catching a pedal on the CRC :dizzy:
Posted by andrub at 12:46 PM on 12-15-2011
Mountain bikes have hit a sweet spot with these 5" 30 lb doitall machines. I don't think I'll ever go back to clips off road though. Grinding up a mountain with a 40 lb bike and 36 tooth ring? That I'm ready to give up. Future of mtb: hopefully light rims will get wider. Like a 30mm thats under 700g. and more hot chicks will get into it because bikes dont trash your knees and skin complexion like snow sports do. BTW as someone who has traveled to the northshore to ride since 2003, the trails are getting smarter, not dumbed down. Less mudpits, braids, and janky rotten wood features. Ladies was a vast improvement, so much fun. Keep evolving right?
Posted by Oldfart at 12:56 PM on 12-15-2011
[QUOTE=Woodro;2598543]



I ride with the odd old schooler (you could throw me in there too!) who doesn't lower their seat and is on a h/t or light travel bike (you can't throw me in there!), hell it might be you by the sounds of it Andy. Yes, you've been riding big loops for longer than most, but now people are riding those big loops and killing it on the descents as well as the climbs (not saying you don't) in a new school way; staying light, boosting over things, hitting jumps, drops...basically incorporating dh skills into big XC loops. New bikes, new style, old Shore.


/QUOTE]

I'm not odd am I? I might add that for some a longer travel bike is required to make up for a lack of skills or daring on more challenging routes. Like me. But I can't ever see myself shuttling or grunting a heavy bike around. I like all aspects of the ride up and down. I get as much of a rush cleaning an uphill as a downhill section that has challenges.
Posted by cam@nsmb.com at 12:57 PM on 12-15-2011
Quote:

Originally Posted by connor (Post 2598494)
yeah, it's called bike riding..

Quote:

Originally Posted by JCL (Post 2598526)
No it is brand new and called XTC!

29er essential.

You guys should get together and party! :lol:
Posted by Bryce at 01:02 PM on 12-15-2011
Good read! Funny though, at the same time that shorter bikes are becoming more capable descenders, the big bikes are getting lighter and more pedalable. So many great options these days.
Posted by nick at 01:04 PM on 12-15-2011
Quote:

Originally Posted by shirk (Post 2598541)
Is XTC more or less gnar than AM? Does it require a different bike than AM?

Will mtbr have a specific XTC sub forum so we can debate the specifics of what is and what is not XTC and keep the AM riff raff out.

Can we make the funny little roadie hats with the brim part of the official XTC uniform? I like those hats.

Oh almost forgot is spandex allowed in this XTC world?

:lol:
Posted by Bryce at 01:11 PM on 12-15-2011
Quote:

Originally Posted by Guest (Post 2598476)
Shortsighted notion, the "grow the sport" angle. MTB will continue without such efforts at "growing" and no sport is "progressed" by dumbing down, or by making the unskilled feel superior.

OK the dumbing down we mostly agree just isn't happening (I guarantee almost every trail on the shore was mellower 10 years ago).

But the part about growing the sport is a valid question that needs more discussion. Maybe not here, not now, but eventually. Is there a need to grow the sport locally? What does it mean for the long term? Should beginners be eased into it, or just run through the gauntlet from the outset? There are some very polar perspectives on this and they become more apparent on threads like the Fromme parking thing.
Posted by Buster Bluth at 01:32 PM on 12-15-2011
We're only making plans for Nigel.
:???:
Posted by JCL at 01:33 PM on 12-15-2011
Quote:

Originally Posted by cam@nsmb.com (Post 2598549)
You guys should get together and party! :lol:


No time I'm afraid Cam. I'm too busy XTC'ing!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Posted by cam@nsmb.com at 01:33 PM on 12-15-2011
Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryce (Post 2598554)
OK the dumbing down we mostly agree just isn't happening (I guarantee almost every trail on the shore was mellower 10 years ago).

But the part about growing the sport is a valid question that needs more discussion. Maybe not here, not now, but eventually. Is there a need to grow the sport locally? What does it mean for the long term? Should beginners be eased into it, or just run through the gauntlet from the outset? There are some very polar perspectives on this and they become more apparent on threads like the Fromme parking thing.

When you plug kids into this equation the answer becomes obvious. imho
Posted by shirk at 01:34 PM on 12-15-2011
Giant bikes was sooo far ahead of the curve on this.

In 2001 they even called the bike the XTC.

http://archive.giant-bicycles.com/cn...001&model=9503

http://archive.giant-bicycles.com/im...01/xtcac_1.jpg

Sure it's heavier than what is available now and the angles could be tweaked a bit.

As someone that has been riding since the early 90's this is a "What's old is new again" trend.
Posted by JCL at 01:35 PM on 12-15-2011
The Blueprint!
Posted by connor at 02:11 PM on 12-15-2011
Quote:

Originally Posted by shirk (Post 2598566)
Giant bikes was sooo far ahead of the curve on this.

In 2001 they even called the bike the XTC.

http://archive.giant-bicycles.com/cn...001&model=9503

http://archive.giant-bicycles.com/im...01/xtcac_1.jpg

Sure it's heavier than what is available now and the angles could be tweaked a bit.

As someone that has been riding since the early 90's this is a "What's old is new again" trend.

has Mark heard from their lawyers yet?
Posted by Oldfart at 02:25 PM on 12-15-2011
Quote:

Originally Posted by shirk (Post 2598541)
Is XTC more or less gnar than AM? Does it require a different bike than AM?

Will mtbr have a specific XTC sub forum so we can debate the specifics of what is and what is not XTC and keep the AM riff raff out.

Can we make the funny little roadie hats with the brim part of the official XTC uniform? I like those hats.

Oh almost forgot is spandex allowed in this XTC world?

Sweet Rules. All cults need rules. Spandex is mandatory. Must be bib shorts or bib nicks. But not quite snug over shorts are also mandatory. Pads are frowned upon. Visors optional. Cleated in at all times, flats are for pansies and no platform clipless neither. And two by 9 or 10. No pinner 2.1 or smaller tires and no tire over a 2.35 either unless you won it in a race.
Posted by Jerry-Rig at 02:57 PM on 12-15-2011
In the article Jeff states that he was getting dropped on the climbs on his Enduro and now he has a Stumpy EVO. The frame weight difference of the two is around 150 grams. I would think Bryson should lay off the pastries.... ;-)
Posted by Mrs. Gurstin at 03:31 PM on 12-15-2011
Quote:

Originally Posted by Oldfart (Post 2598579)
Sweet Rules. All cults need rules. Spandex is mandatory. Must be bib shorts or bib nicks. But not quite snug over shorts are also mandatory. Pads are frowned upon. Visors optional. Cleated in at all times, flats are for pansies and no platform clipless neither. And two by 9 or 10. No pinner 2.1 or smaller tires and no tire over a 2.35 either unless you won it in a race.

All good rules indeed! But what about the most important thing....weight?? What's the magic number that makes it a 'big' bike or 'little' bike?:P

I'm sort of kidding, but it's interesting how much technology (or is it riding preferences?) have changed. I've been happily riding a Knolly Endorphin for the past 4 years or so. I bought it as my XC/AM/ trail bike, or I guess what I should now be calling XTC riding. But with a 150mm fork and weighing in around 31-32 lbs or so, according to this article I guess it's not really considered a 'little' bike anymore.

Regardless, I love my bike, I'm super comfortable on it, and not looking to replace it. This article just makes me wonder if I could now get the same performance, and feel as comfortable on the trails around here, riding something 5 pounds lighter with less travel. Somehow, I just doubt it...

Fun read Mark!
Posted by enduramil at 03:44 PM on 12-15-2011
Quote:

Originally Posted by shirk (Post 2598541)
Is XTC more or less gnar than AM? Does it require a different bike than AM?

Will mtbr have a specific XTC sub forum so we can debate the specifics of what is and what is not XTC and keep the AM riff raff out.

Can we make the funny little roadie hats with the brim part of the official XTC uniform? I like those hats.

Oh almost forgot is spandex allowed in this XTC world?

Now you are being insular.
Posted by FlipFantasia at 03:54 PM on 12-15-2011
before I read the whole thread, just want to say awesome article and photos, Mark! you nailed it in my opinion!
Posted by Armani at 04:00 PM on 12-15-2011
I like XTC and spandex... Oooooo! Lord it feels so good to pop some and slip into those tights and designer Italian shoes. C U sailors on the trail! Gotta go shave and embrocate the legs before I drop in!
Posted by scotter at 04:05 PM on 12-15-2011
While I agree that geometry has made a big difference, let's not forget about the advances in suspension. Yes, people are riding lower travel bikes, but I don't think a shorter travel bike these days is any harder to ride than a longer travel bike a few years ago (at least not down). In fact, I dare say they're easier to ride down, these days. The suspension in our bikes has gotten very good, very quickly, negating the need for an 8" bike on the shore. Add to that the weight savings of these stronger, lighter bikes, and we end up with something that climbs and descends very well.

There are those that will disagree, of course, but I think my 36 van RC2 (160mm) is easily the stiffest, most well damped fork I've ever ridden. I've had a couple of 8" bikes and a couple of 6" bikes. The only time I ever needed quantity of travel over quality of travel is for long bumpy straights at the bike park.

Honestly, I just think the drastically increased quality, tunability, and adaptability of modern suspension, in conjunction with the evolution of geometry has simply meant that we can do more with less.
Posted by barnz0rz at 04:57 PM on 12-15-2011
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jerry-Rig (Post 2598588)
In the article Jeff states that he was getting dropped on the climbs on his Enduro and now he has a Stumpy EVO. The frame weight difference of the two is around 150 grams. I would think Bryson should lay off the pastries.... ;-)

I read that and didn't think the weight difference between the 2 bikes would be very large. If you're an elite lever racer, is a difference of maybe 1.5 lbs or less really going to make that much of a difference to whether or not you get dropped when you're out riding with your buddies?
Posted by Oldfart at 05:10 PM on 12-15-2011
While overall weight does play a roll, it's wheel weight that makes the biggest difference to climbing. I'm playing on a Nomad these days with medium weight wheels. 500 gram rims with 2.35 Hans Dampf is a touch heavier than I like. But much lighter rims means giving up strength and possibly width or giving up a lot of cash. EXC500 rims are only 400 grams and maybe $800 per rim. I haven't weigh my Nomad yet but I am guessing under 30. My old Al one was depending which tires I had and this one is carbon.
Posted by tazzmenn at 05:12 PM on 12-15-2011
Quote:

Originally Posted by barnz0rz (Post 2598636)
I read that and didn't think the weight difference between the 2 bikes would be very large. If you're an elite lever racer, is a difference of maybe 1.5 lbs or less really going to make that much of a difference to whether or not you get dropped when you're out riding with your buddies?

Is it not more of a geometry thing as apposed to over all weight. Great article Woody! You know I am on the 5 and 5 and loving all of it everywhere all the time. :coo:
Posted by Guest at 05:17 PM on 12-15-2011
pedalling is fun!
Posted by pipeline at 07:11 PM on 12-15-2011
Quote:

Originally Posted by Oldfart (Post 2598492)
It is how I have been riding since I started in the early 80's. As have many others. This is what mountain biking is. This does not need so called progression into more and more specialized equipment and skills.

me too, in the early 90s. i ride the same trails now on my 6 inch am bike as i did fully rigid. more capable bikes have counteracted aging perhaps. i have always called it North Shore XC, distinguishing it from shuttling and from the nice smooth flat singletrack that "XC" on its own connotates.
Posted by Marconi at 07:23 PM on 12-15-2011
@ Jerry .
I thought pastries made you ride faster !!
Posted by Carrot Top at 07:27 PM on 12-15-2011
I wish it was still 2003 where skinnies and drops to flat were all the rage!
Posted by Another old fart at 07:30 PM on 12-15-2011
Great article.
But a ways back there was something that caught my eyes that was not commented on further and that was "Fully Rigid"
Yes, slogging up and hanging on on the way down, finding your line, saying a prayer (only on Sunday's) canilever brakes with wet brake pads on flimsy rims, squealing all the way down. OK just dreamin'.
Fully Rigid with disc's.
I fianally got off my hard tail in August and got 6" of plush riding enduro and now your saying go back to small?
Posted by ito at 07:36 PM on 12-15-2011
Nice to see you guys catching up with what we've been riding in the states for years...:P

This new breed of bikes is reminding me of the bike I rode back in high school and college; dual slalom geometry, full length post, and a 1x9 drivetrain. Kicked ass up and down, way too much fun. I'm glad the industry is producing high quality, short travel bikes that are made to shred, I'm excited enough that I may actually buy a new bike this year. Haven't been able to say that in 7 or 8 years now.

Sweet article, good to know that other folks out there are riding big loops with hard descents, maybe one day I'll try this Shore thing.
Posted by fullmast at 07:52 PM on 12-15-2011
Great!

Looks like what a few of us have been doing since the age of roller-cam brakes and 4130 straight gauge tubing is going mainstream.

Guess it's time for me to get a second bike and find out what that shuttling craze was all about...

;)
Posted by Sparkplug at 07:56 PM on 12-15-2011
Quote:

Originally Posted by biggles604 (Post 2598456)
I've been trying to tell people that little bikes are more fun. Make the down harder, and the up more enjoyable, and the riding experience is so much better in my opinion. It seems like more and more share that opinion now.


I really enjoyed the article and can share the sentiment. I have a ton of fun on the little bike, and am constantly impressed how well it handles tech and jumps as well as the pedalling. My only point of contention is that fun rides like this and fun rides on other bikes and other types of riding don't have to be mutually exclusive. I don't think that judgement needs to be cast on what is "better"; it should simply be a great experience for whatever one chooses to ride that day. Everyone's riding experience can be equally enjoyable and yet ridden on completely different bikes on different types of trails.
Posted by ol' dirty at 08:27 PM on 12-15-2011
Great article! Nice work, Mark.

When I first heard "AM" I thought meant riding in the morning. Then I figured out it's just the latest buzzword for real mountain biking. I never really dug getting out of a truck at the top to hit the trail cold for a "lap" and then drinking beers in the parking lot, it's just not a ride to me but to each their own.

It is nice to have more durable, short travel bikes with proper seat tubes and dialed geo fill the gap between XC and DH, drop posts are the icing on the cake. For years the only affordable and durable option for me was a steel hardtail with a big fork and a modicum of bike handling ability. I'm digging the AM/Trail/XTC/whatever-you-call-it renaissance.
Posted by Bullmax at 08:32 PM on 12-15-2011
Bullmax and XTC

http://youtu.be/97QZEAhk0EI
Posted by shoresterGuest at 09:14 PM on 12-15-2011
The beauty of mountain biking is that there are so many aspects to the sport. I agree that the all mountain trend is a positive one. Bikes aren't that much different than what we were riding 7-8 years ago, but weight and suspension have improved. My Enduro climbs a lot better than my old Brodie or Cannondale, but handles very similar to those 5 + 5 bikes.

As for the big bikes days being numbered, I'd disagree. My next build will be in the low 30's. Plenty of us are cranking out the climbs on these bikes linking the downhill lines. The big bike is so much more fun on the true gnarl that you find once you leave Fromme. Yes you could ride a lot of it on a smaller bike but would lose an element of fun. Two or three inches of extra travel will let you blow through more, but you still need the skill to pull off many of the lines. Big tires and brakes also make a massive difference. Sex Girl on a big bike=fun. On a 5 + 5, do-able but a whole lot less fun.
Posted by awesterner at 10:25 PM on 12-15-2011
Nice article Mark. Shall we man up and drop the Mojo's to 140mm then? :-)
Posted by clarklewis at 10:42 PM on 12-15-2011
good article.

i think some people are missing the point. riding little bikes in rad terrain isn't new. what's new(ish) is riding them with modern speed and style, both up and down. this is in part due to advances in bike design, though its been happening for years in whistler and pemby on hardtails with little fanfare.

the very best riders (some of which are featured in the article) would probably blow many people's minds - a lot of nasty terrain is covered in a relatively short amount of time, and with good style. some could perhaps match the pace, but it wouldn't be as pretty.

there may be a bit of an elitist tone to the article that rubs some people the wrong way, though i doubt it was intentional (mark's a gentleman, as are the guys he names in the article). however, there's so much spraying going on these days, i'm not surprised by some of the negative comments.

the very best style will always come from those who perform their black magic under the radar, far from video cameras and the interwebz.
Posted by Romana at 12:04 AM on 12-16-2011
Very good article indeed - I have a special request for Cam : can you please give me his latest adress email ? I'm an old friend of him from France. I had no news from him for a few years now ... my email is sixmotion@gmail.com
Thanks,
Romana
Posted by biggles604 at 08:00 AM on 12-16-2011
Quote:

Originally Posted by Sparkplug (Post 2598687)
I really enjoyed the article and can share the sentiment. I have a ton of fun on the little bike, and am constantly impressed how well it handles tech and jumps as well as the pedalling. My only point of contention is that fun rides like this and fun rides on other bikes and other types of riding don't have to be mutually exclusive. I don't think that judgement needs to be cast on what is "better"; it should simply be a great experience for whatever one chooses to ride that day. Everyone's riding experience can be equally enjoyable and yet ridden on completely different bikes on different types of trails.

Best post of the thread here. Ride what gives you enjoyment, but be open minded to any form of riding experience.
Posted by InaCycle at 08:48 AM on 12-16-2011
Quote:

Originally Posted by andrub (Post 2598544)
...and more hot chicks will get into it because bikes dont trash your knees and skin complexion like snow sports do.

Uh ya, as long as they always wear armour, never crash bare-kneed (unless riding in meadows full of lush grass versus, you know, logs, rocks, cacti) and don't ride on sunny days...
Posted by boomforeal at 10:06 AM on 12-16-2011
Quote:

Originally Posted by cam@nsmb.com (Post 2598549)
You guys should get together and party! :lol:

http://assets0.ordienetworks.com/ima...le_xlarge.jpeg

Quote:

Originally Posted by InaCycle (Post 2598869)
Uh ya, as long as they always wear armour, never crash bare-kneed (unless riding in meadows full of lush grass versus, you know, logs, rocks, cacti) and don't ride on sunny days...

i like scars ;)
Posted by cam@nsmb.com at 10:46 AM on 12-16-2011
Quote:

Originally Posted by clarklewis (Post 2598755)
good article.

i think some people are missing the point. riding little bikes in rad terrain isn't new. what's new(ish) is riding them with modern speed and style, both up and down. this is in part due to advances in bike design, though its been happening for years in whistler and pemby on hardtails with little fanfare.

the very best riders (some of which are featured in the article) would probably blow many people's minds - a lot of nasty terrain is covered in a relatively short amount of time, and with good style. some could perhaps match the pace, but it wouldn't be as pretty.

there may be a bit of an elitist tone to the article that rubs some people the wrong way, though i doubt it was intentional (mark's a gentleman, as are the guys he names in the article). however, there's so much spraying going on these days, i'm not surprised by some of the negative comments.

the very best style will always come from those who perform their black magic under the radar, far from video cameras and the interwebz.

There you go actually reading the article again Clark! Great comments. Nailed it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Romana (Post 2598797)
Very good article indeed - I have a special request for Cam : can you please give me his latest adress email ? I'm an old friend of him from France. I had no news from him for a few years now ... my email is sixmotion@gmail.com
Thanks,
Romana

Arthur will see this for sure Romana. Do you have any good Arthur stories for us? We'd love to hear them!
Posted by Trevor Hansen at 04:43 PM on 12-16-2011
Ma,ma,ma,ma my Ramona
Posted by abuxton at 05:58 PM on 12-16-2011
When going out for an XC ride on the Shore I like to think of it as putting the c*nt back in cross country. Especially after riding Dales/C-Buster (including the ride up the knoll) then heading over to Bottle Top via Greenland, and finishing with the full Bridal/Sticks & Stones beatdown.
Posted by connor at 06:52 PM on 12-16-2011
here you go.. you can buy some parts for you epic old school XTC bike.

http://vancouver.en.craigslist.ca/nv...746182757.html
Posted by walleater at 10:40 PM on 12-16-2011
^That's a pretty awesome selection of parts.

Is Power XC finally dead then?
Posted by Romana at 08:02 PM on 12-17-2011
Hi Cam
thx a lot for your answer, I may have some funny nicknames to share :-D
Posted by Woodro at 09:56 AM on 12-24-2011
Quote:

Originally Posted by barnz0rz (Post 2598636)
I read that and didn't think the weight difference between the 2 bikes would be very large. If you're an elite lever racer, is a difference of maybe 1.5 lbs or less really going to make that much of a difference to whether or not you get dropped when you're out riding with your buddies?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jerry-Rig (Post 2598588)
In the article Jeff states that he was getting dropped on the climbs on his Enduro and now he has a Stumpy EVO. The frame weight difference of the two is around 150 grams. I would think Bryson should lay off the pastries.... ;-)


I would think it has more to do with pedalling geo differences and the way you spec the bike as each must have it's own intended purpose? Bryson is running a 15mm front thru axel and 32mm stanchion fork, light wheels/tires. I don't know Spesh that well but am assuming they produce two different bikes for two different purposes, one lighter duty than the other? But Jerry would know...
Posted by TylerDurden at 08:53 AM on 12-31-2011
When these shredders say "we're not trying to race down the hill" but instead are trying to make the most of the terrain, I think of Wade in the RM6 days, popping off everything on local trails, showing us lines we didn't know were there. Somewhere between the road gap and the contrived teeter-totter, things went off the rails, but the old spirit was cool. Now I wonder, are we back to 'racing down the hill' with the big wheels, but missing the point?

Our terrain isn't built for speed. Post up you shore ride on Stava and you won't win many cheers compared to avg speed in Boulder or Arizona. But speed has never been the point of doing well on tech singletrack, but here we are, watching these guys best weekend warriors, on lesser gear, at the local Ripper and our jaws are dropping.

It's not just on big wheels either - watch Conner's trek AM-bike vid as he rides on the very edge. The one purpose of riding like this is to get from A to B in very few seconds...but something just seems forced, and it's because the terrain just isn't there for sheer speed.

I really don't know the answer. I avoid the double-blacks and focus on the easy trails like Sticks & Stones & Credit Line, so personally I can't wait to try a 29'er. If I were 25 again and bullet-proof, I'd be back making the most of the harder trails but I don't think I'd be doing it for speed per se....
Posted by Woodro at 09:05 AM on 01-06-2012
Quote:

Originally Posted by TylerDurden (Post 2603234)
When these shredders say "we're not trying to race down the hill" but instead are trying to make the most of the terrain, I think of Wade in the RM6 days, popping off everything on local trails, showing us lines we didn't know were there.

Awesome vid.