Leatt DBX Pro Gear Shot
Get Braced for 2012?
Words by Mike Wallace. Photos by Mike Wallace.
Date: 2011-10-18
Standing in line this year at the Whistler bike park earlier this spring it seemed like almost half the riders were wearing a neck brace. There seems to be very little written about actually wearing one so getting one ordered up for a nsmb test seemed like the right thing to do.
The brace showed up last week. The model we are testing is the full blown top of the line bicycle specific DBX (GPX is for moto) Pro carbon. Last year Leatt starting making the lower profile mountain bike specific braces. Before that you had to buy the moto version.
The DBX Pro comes in a quality carrying case with a harness strap and three different sizes of hinges for finding the proper size. First thing I noticed is that the carbon model is actually a beautiful piece of craftsmanship. The carbon structure combined with the CNC machined aluminum hinges makes the brace a thing of beauty. The attention to detail and finish is fantastic.
I hunkered down on my living room floor to try and figure out how to set it up to fit the best I could. It was a good thing my carpet was shag cause you have to get comfortable when trying to figure it all out the first time. For such a beautiful piece of craftsmanship and for the price tag the instruction manual is not up to scratch. It is not that well written. Actually nowhere in the manual does it even mention the harness. It took me 10 min to figure out how to attach the harness. I Googled Leatt straps and I found someone who actually gave up trying to figure it out and was asking for help.
Once I did figure it out though I found that adjustments were fairly straight forward to make. On the DBX Pro there are basically only three adjustments to make. One is the size of the hinges which basically affects the diameter of the circle from front to back. A very wide range of chest and shoulder sizes can be accommodated with the three different hinge sizes. Second is the distance of the back plate (called the thoracic strut) from the center of the neck brace. For example a thicker back would require that the thoracic strut is further away from the center of the neck brace. The third adjustment is the angle of the thoracic strut. The bottom end of the strut can be angle in or away from your back to fine tune the fit.
Mike 'testing' the Leatt DBX Pro Carbon off the GLC drop. Neck braces are the sort of product you never want to fully test.
After it was all adjusted the brace felt light and comfortable. The straps or harness on the DBX Pro actually go under your armpits instead of across your chest like other models. The Leatt boys at Crankworx were saying that this is proving to be very effective and popular. It was obvious in talking to them though that Leatt is still trying to determine the ultimate harness set-up.
So now it is off to the park to try it out. Stay tuned for the full test. Actually let me rephrase that. Stay tuned for the full comfort, use and practicality test. I hopefully will not be able to provide ‘full’ test results.
You can pick up a DBX Pro online for US$695
Our DBX pro weighed in at 655 grams.
Have you worn a neck brace? Are you a believer? There isn't much independent scientific evidence to tell us if these actually do anything in the event of a crash. At least I haven't been able to find it. Give us your take here...
Comments
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Posted by ReductiMat at 11:49 PM on 10-18-2011
I picked up a Leatt DBX Comp II this year. I'm surprised at how much I don't notice it. In fact, I've completely forgotten it's there.
Unfortunately, I did test it out this year. Unfortunately, I have no recollection of my accident. However, I can say with absolute certainty that the Leatt brace either saved me from breaking my neck, or exacerbating my injuries by not letting me roll with the wipe out.
I picked up a Leatt DBX Comp II this year. I'm surprised at how much I don't notice it. In fact, I've completely forgotten it's there.
Unfortunately, I did test it out this year. Unfortunately, I have no recollection of my accident. However, I can say with absolute certainty that the Leatt brace either saved me from breaking my neck, or exacerbating my injuries by not letting me roll with the wipe out.
Posted by craw at 06:19 AM on 10-19-2011
I bought a regular DBX earlier this year and have been happy with it (at least in the sense that it fits well and is comfortable). I bought mine at Fanatik in Bellingham. I think if I had bought it sight-unseen I almost certainly would have bought the wrong size. I haven't been a size small in anything since I was a child. One of the people in the store took some time to help me get it adjusted correctly. This is a great example of the sort of product that should not be purchased online.
I bought a regular DBX earlier this year and have been happy with it (at least in the sense that it fits well and is comfortable). I bought mine at Fanatik in Bellingham. I think if I had bought it sight-unseen I almost certainly would have bought the wrong size. I haven't been a size small in anything since I was a child. One of the people in the store took some time to help me get it adjusted correctly. This is a great example of the sort of product that should not be purchased online.
Posted by NeverlosT at 06:56 AM on 10-19-2011
I havent gotten one of these badboys yet. It is a ton of money and I have been crashing all my life. For the amount of neck injuries that actually go down, it seems like everyone has jumped on this bandwagon awfully fast.
Beats me, but they should have some statistics and stuff to back up the need for these. Otherwise it looks like $700 worth of decoration. I mean, it does look badass.
It always mistifies me when people JUST wear these braces though. I mean, the chances of smashing your elbow, shoulder, whatever are so much higher than the kind of impact that a leatte :might: help with. Different strokes for different folks I guess.
I havent gotten one of these badboys yet. It is a ton of money and I have been crashing all my life. For the amount of neck injuries that actually go down, it seems like everyone has jumped on this bandwagon awfully fast.
Beats me, but they should have some statistics and stuff to back up the need for these. Otherwise it looks like $700 worth of decoration. I mean, it does look badass.
It always mistifies me when people JUST wear these braces though. I mean, the chances of smashing your elbow, shoulder, whatever are so much higher than the kind of impact that a leatte :might: help with. Different strokes for different folks I guess.
Posted by cam@nsmb.com at 08:36 AM on 10-19-2011
That's another interesting aspect to this. When there was a fatality at Whistler a few years ago - on Crabapple Hits - apparently the rider died of internal injuries. With the Leatt you can't wear upper body armour and protect your torso. Broken ribs and punctured lungs can be very serious injuries and wearing a Leatt means you can't do anything to prevent these.
Reduct - what do you mean by "not letting me roll with the wipeout." It seems to me rolling is what you'd want to do no?
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by NeverlosT
(Post 2579057)
I havent gotten one of these badboys yet. It is a ton of money and I have been crashing all my life. For the amount of neck injuries that actually go down, it seems like everyone has jumped on this bandwagon awfully fast.
Beats me, but they should have some statistics and stuff to back up the need for these. Otherwise it looks like $700 worth of decoration. I mean, it does look badass. It always mistifies me when people JUST wear these braces though. I mean, the chances of smashing your elbow, shoulder, whatever are so much higher than the kind of impact that a leatte :might: help with. Different strokes for different folks I guess. |
Reduct - what do you mean by "not letting me roll with the wipeout." It seems to me rolling is what you'd want to do no?
Posted by ReductiMat at 08:40 AM on 10-19-2011
Yep, I think I came in on a lawn-dart angle where I couldn't tuck my chin and roll, effectively taking the full force with my hand, wrist and head.
This is all 100% conjecture based on where I was on the trail and my resultant injuries...
Quote:
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Originally Posted by cam@nsmb.com
(Post 2579071)
Reduct - what do you mean by "not letting me roll with the wipeout." It seems to me rolling is what you'd want to do no?
|
This is all 100% conjecture based on where I was on the trail and my resultant injuries...
Posted by clownmitts at 08:48 AM on 10-19-2011
I wear a TLD 7850 shirt and a leatt dbx and they fit together fine.
http://www.allsportprotection.com/Tr..._p/tld0030.htm
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by cam@nsmb.com
(Post 2579071)
That's another interesting aspect to this. When there was a fatality at Whistler a few years ago - on Crabapple Hits - apparently the rider died of internal injuries. With the Leatt you can't wear upper body armour and protect your torso. Broken ribs and punctured lungs can be very serious injuries and wearing a Leatt means you can't do anything to prevent these.
Reduct - what do you mean by "not letting me roll with the wipeout." It seems to me rolling is what you'd want to do no? |
http://www.allsportprotection.com/Tr..._p/tld0030.htm
Posted by Da Peach at 08:57 AM on 10-19-2011
Yeah, I wear the same shirt-armour, with the GPX Moto version and a D3. Mind you, you do have to remove part of the armour to accomodate the brace, but that section of removed armour gets covered by the hard plastic of the brace. It should also be noted that the TLD shirt has nowhere near the same spine protection as my old Dainese did, but that was kind of a selling point for me. Low-pro!
I gotta say, I do feel the brace a little bit in really tight berms and really steep roll-ins (eg rock roll to step-up on Rock City at WPB), but it's not hampered me to the point of not wanting to wear it. I'm just a weekend warrior anyway.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by clownmitts
(Post 2579076)
I wear a TLD 7850 shirt and a leatt dbx and they fit together fine.
http://www.allsportprotection.com/Tr..._p/tld0030.htm |
I gotta say, I do feel the brace a little bit in really tight berms and really steep roll-ins (eg rock roll to step-up on Rock City at WPB), but it's not hampered me to the point of not wanting to wear it. I'm just a weekend warrior anyway.
Posted by gotham at 09:03 AM on 10-19-2011
Leatt makes armour now that is compatible with the brace.
http://www.leatt-brace.com/index.php...vest-adventure
Leatt makes armour now that is compatible with the brace.
http://www.leatt-brace.com/index.php...vest-adventure
Posted by J Dawg Mo at 09:29 AM on 10-19-2011
People JUST wear the brace because they want to limit the chance that they will break their neck in the event that it MIGHT happen.
I had put off buying and wearing a brace for a year and a half until this spring I was forced to hold a friends head in C-Spine on a trail for close to an hour before any medical help arrived. His crash, which was caused by fork failure, left him lying on the trail not being able to move or feel his body. This type of injury is not like a bump on the arm or bone breaking that takes weeks to heal. It is a life changing injury that is not remedied by a cast or ice and rest. Luckily my friend's spinal cord was not severed but it was damaged so he has regained a lot of movement and is very positive about the progress he has made. He is a very big inspiration and continues to work hard to make his new life as enjoyable as possible.
Needless to say I did NOT ride my bike for weeks until I had a brace around my neck. I have also encouraged many of my riding friends to also get one, as I would not like to be holding another friends head if possible.
Maybe you like to "walk on the wild side"... but the cost of a brace FAR outweighs the costs of a life changing injury. I'm sure that your loved ones would agree.
Maybe instead of getting the latest PIMP part for your bike, or the brightest TLD/Fox/etc Race Kit save that money for a brace.
/end rant
Quote:
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Originally Posted by NeverlosT
(Post 2579057)
JUST wear these brace
|
I had put off buying and wearing a brace for a year and a half until this spring I was forced to hold a friends head in C-Spine on a trail for close to an hour before any medical help arrived. His crash, which was caused by fork failure, left him lying on the trail not being able to move or feel his body. This type of injury is not like a bump on the arm or bone breaking that takes weeks to heal. It is a life changing injury that is not remedied by a cast or ice and rest. Luckily my friend's spinal cord was not severed but it was damaged so he has regained a lot of movement and is very positive about the progress he has made. He is a very big inspiration and continues to work hard to make his new life as enjoyable as possible.
Needless to say I did NOT ride my bike for weeks until I had a brace around my neck. I have also encouraged many of my riding friends to also get one, as I would not like to be holding another friends head if possible.
Maybe you like to "walk on the wild side"... but the cost of a brace FAR outweighs the costs of a life changing injury. I'm sure that your loved ones would agree.
Maybe instead of getting the latest PIMP part for your bike, or the brightest TLD/Fox/etc Race Kit save that money for a brace.
/end rant
Posted by J Dawg Mo at 09:40 AM on 10-19-2011
As a couple others have said it only takes a few runs to get used to one once the fit in tuned in properly. There are a few cases where your helmet will bump against it but 99% of the time it's a bump and not hampering your view or hindering your movement so much that it is going to through your riding off.
In my opinion if you are wearing a full face helmet you should be wearing your brace. It is nice to see a few slopestyle guys wearing them, and hopefully it gets the kids stoked on wearing them.... even if it is to just "be cool" At least they will be wearing them.
As a couple others have said it only takes a few runs to get used to one once the fit in tuned in properly. There are a few cases where your helmet will bump against it but 99% of the time it's a bump and not hampering your view or hindering your movement so much that it is going to through your riding off.
In my opinion if you are wearing a full face helmet you should be wearing your brace. It is nice to see a few slopestyle guys wearing them, and hopefully it gets the kids stoked on wearing them.... even if it is to just "be cool" At least they will be wearing them.
Posted by Bryan at 09:50 AM on 10-19-2011
glad to see a few people correct this. I too have the TLD shirt and it seems like it would function well. I really liked the fact that it has excellent rib cage protection. I took a pretty good over the bars crash at hemlock(fraggle rock) and while the rocks did cut through the shirt in a few spots and you could see the imprint of the padding on my skin, things faired pretty well. The shirt actually feels pretty comfy, is fairly light and is not as hot as one would think.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by cam@nsmb.com
(Post 2579071)
That's another interesting aspect to this. When there was a fatality at Whistler a few years ago - on Crabapple Hits - apparently the rider died of internal injuries. With the Leatt you can't wear upper body armour and protect your torso. Broken ribs and punctured lungs can be very serious injuries and wearing a Leatt means you can't do anything to prevent these.
Reduct - what do you mean by "not letting me roll with the wipeout." It seems to me rolling is what you'd want to do no? |
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by clownmitts
(Post 2579076)
I wear a TLD 7850 shirt and a leatt dbx and they fit together fine.
http://www.allsportprotection.com/Tr..._p/tld0030.htm |
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Da Peach
(Post 2579081)
Yeah, I wear the same shirt-armour, with the GPX Moto version and a D3. Mind you, you do have to remove part of the armour to accomodate the brace, but that section of removed armour gets covered by the hard plastic of the brace. It should also be noted that the TLD shirt has nowhere near the same spine protection as my old Dainese did, but that was kind of a selling point for me. Low-pro!
I gotta say, I do feel the brace a little bit in really tight berms and really steep roll-ins (eg rock roll to step-up on Rock City at WPB), but it's not hampered me to the point of not wanting to wear it. I'm just a weekend warrior anyway. |
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by gotham
(Post 2579082)
Leatt makes armour now that is compatible with the brace.
http://www.leatt-brace.com/index.php...vest-adventure |
Posted by L. Hutz Esq at 10:12 AM on 10-19-2011
I have an old rockgdn flak jacket and my leat dbx ride fits fine.
My wife bought my brace after a friend of ours became a quad in an accident where he scorpioned.
I don't notice it on any more, much like a seatbelt it now feels weird without it.
I bailed on freightline in September- shattered wrist, concussion symptoms still ongoing but more interestingly bruzing and abrassions on my shoulders and collor bone where the brace was.
I have no recollection of the accident so can't tell you if the brace saved my neck or not. What I can say is accidents happen and I am much happier standing here wondering if the brace saved my neck then I would be sitting in my buddy's power chair wondering if the brace would have saved me.
Now I am not sure the top o the line model is necissary like I said I don't feel mine at all. Maybe if you have one of those non standard boddies and can't get the adjustments right on the cheap one it would be worth it.
So - if it is just kool- aid, I will keep drinking.
I have an old rockgdn flak jacket and my leat dbx ride fits fine.
My wife bought my brace after a friend of ours became a quad in an accident where he scorpioned.
I don't notice it on any more, much like a seatbelt it now feels weird without it.
I bailed on freightline in September- shattered wrist, concussion symptoms still ongoing but more interestingly bruzing and abrassions on my shoulders and collor bone where the brace was.
I have no recollection of the accident so can't tell you if the brace saved my neck or not. What I can say is accidents happen and I am much happier standing here wondering if the brace saved my neck then I would be sitting in my buddy's power chair wondering if the brace would have saved me.
Now I am not sure the top o the line model is necissary like I said I don't feel mine at all. Maybe if you have one of those non standard boddies and can't get the adjustments right on the cheap one it would be worth it.
So - if it is just kool- aid, I will keep drinking.
Posted by craw at 10:41 AM on 10-19-2011
That Leatt body armour looks good.
I retired my old Dainese this year and went with the Leatt instead. My logic was that the main strength of the Dainese was the back plate whose primary function was to prevent me from hyperextending and hitting my head with my heels. I don't ever fall like this, not once, not ever. The rest of the suit was uncomfortable and generally just protected me from abrasion injury.
So I switched to great knee and elbow pads with the Leatt. I don't see any point in getting a greasy elbow when the POC elbows are so damn comfortable.
That Leatt body armour looks good.
I retired my old Dainese this year and went with the Leatt instead. My logic was that the main strength of the Dainese was the back plate whose primary function was to prevent me from hyperextending and hitting my head with my heels. I don't ever fall like this, not once, not ever. The rest of the suit was uncomfortable and generally just protected me from abrasion injury.
So I switched to great knee and elbow pads with the Leatt. I don't see any point in getting a greasy elbow when the POC elbows are so damn comfortable.
Posted by Fizic at 12:41 PM on 10-19-2011
Ive had two non-bike related whip-lash injuries in the past 18 months.
I am going to physio for it as well as chiro.
I can ride smaller trails with minor neck muscular pain the next day.
Big trails not so much.
Im thinkin the brace would allow me to start riding, while giving me a bit of protection so I dont re-injure.
Or is this a crash/overextension prevention only?
Not to be used as a rehabilitation tool?
Ive had two non-bike related whip-lash injuries in the past 18 months.
I am going to physio for it as well as chiro.
I can ride smaller trails with minor neck muscular pain the next day.
Big trails not so much.
Im thinkin the brace would allow me to start riding, while giving me a bit of protection so I dont re-injure.
Or is this a crash/overextension prevention only?
Not to be used as a rehabilitation tool?
Posted by ReductiMat at 12:45 PM on 10-19-2011
Definitely not a rehab tool. You have full ROM of your neck up to a certain point...
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Fizic
(Post 2579198)
Ive had two non-bike related whip-lash injuries in the past 18 months.
I am going to physio for it as well as chiro. I can ride smaller trails with minor neck muscular pain the next day. Big trails not so much. Im thinkin the brace would allow me to start riding, while giving me a bit of protection so I dont re-injure. Or is this a crash/overextension prevention only? Not to be used as a rehabilitation tool? |
Posted by 1375 at 01:17 PM on 10-19-2011
anyone else remember purple ano bar ends?
anyone else remember purple ano bar ends?
Posted by Sparkplug at 02:16 PM on 10-19-2011
I was holding off on getting a neck brace until there was some nicely compatible upper body armour. Now with the DBX Comp II and the TLD shirt, everything fits great and will hopefully provide the protection I need. I rode with it all race season and have no complaints.
As for the lack of scientific information on the braces, I also don't see anything that leads me to believe that wearing a brace worsens one's chance of neck injury so if it doesn't hurt and it may help, why not?
I was holding off on getting a neck brace until there was some nicely compatible upper body armour. Now with the DBX Comp II and the TLD shirt, everything fits great and will hopefully provide the protection I need. I rode with it all race season and have no complaints.
As for the lack of scientific information on the braces, I also don't see anything that leads me to believe that wearing a brace worsens one's chance of neck injury so if it doesn't hurt and it may help, why not?
Posted by CarMan at 02:56 PM on 10-19-2011
In Sept of 2007 while riding Crank It Up I came upon an accident at Joy Ride Jump Park. A 40 yr old, experienced rider endoed one of the jumps and is now a quad. She stopped breathing and would have died if I did not intervene to provide mouth to mouth for about 10min until proper help could take over.
A few months before that, a friend of a friend who lived on the N Shore became a full quad after failing to negotiate a high ladder.
These experiences led me to try the Leatt but did not like the ergonomics of it and how it interfered with mtn biking equipment. Being a composites expert I designed an all carbon fiber brace that has been tested by myself and others for a couple years now.
It weighs 380grams with padding and is so light and comfortable that you really forget about it.
So how does it work? Unfortunately I have "tested it". In 2008 I broke my collar bone on Freight Train wearing the original prototype and even though the fall was not neck threatening, it prevented a strain of some degree.
In 2010 I broke my wrist on the big rock face on Upper Joy Ride with a serious face plant. Without a doubt it prevented some sort of neck injury.
Unfortunately, 1 month ago I did a massive endo off the GLC, broke my femur and damaged my helmet. Did the brace save me? I'll never know. But when you look at the photos (Coast Mtn Photography was there!) it saved me from some sort of neck injury.
I have had more than my share of injuries but rarely small ones, only the big ones. I have flown over the GLC a 100 times in practice and while racing without incident . It doesn't matter how skilled you are, you never know when and where you will fail, BUT YOU WILL!
Will my version ever hit the market place? It is complicated and expensive and requires a massive investment. Not sure if it will happen.
But one thing is for sure, I will never ride DH without a neck brace and neither should you.
BTW, I wear Race Face full body armour with a Lacrosse rib protector and it all fits nicely together.
In Sept of 2007 while riding Crank It Up I came upon an accident at Joy Ride Jump Park. A 40 yr old, experienced rider endoed one of the jumps and is now a quad. She stopped breathing and would have died if I did not intervene to provide mouth to mouth for about 10min until proper help could take over.
A few months before that, a friend of a friend who lived on the N Shore became a full quad after failing to negotiate a high ladder.
These experiences led me to try the Leatt but did not like the ergonomics of it and how it interfered with mtn biking equipment. Being a composites expert I designed an all carbon fiber brace that has been tested by myself and others for a couple years now.
It weighs 380grams with padding and is so light and comfortable that you really forget about it.
So how does it work? Unfortunately I have "tested it". In 2008 I broke my collar bone on Freight Train wearing the original prototype and even though the fall was not neck threatening, it prevented a strain of some degree.
In 2010 I broke my wrist on the big rock face on Upper Joy Ride with a serious face plant. Without a doubt it prevented some sort of neck injury.
Unfortunately, 1 month ago I did a massive endo off the GLC, broke my femur and damaged my helmet. Did the brace save me? I'll never know. But when you look at the photos (Coast Mtn Photography was there!) it saved me from some sort of neck injury.
I have had more than my share of injuries but rarely small ones, only the big ones. I have flown over the GLC a 100 times in practice and while racing without incident . It doesn't matter how skilled you are, you never know when and where you will fail, BUT YOU WILL!
Will my version ever hit the market place? It is complicated and expensive and requires a massive investment. Not sure if it will happen.
But one thing is for sure, I will never ride DH without a neck brace and neither should you.
BTW, I wear Race Face full body armour with a Lacrosse rib protector and it all fits nicely together.
Posted by Beard of Bees at 03:07 PM on 10-19-2011
This summer I fractured my C-4 on a cross country ride after some sort of crash involving my head rolling under my body. I can't give specifics as to the cause, as I was knocked out cold for 15 minutes and no one I was with saw the accident - I have no recollection of the accident or the trail leading up to it, but for reference it was an easy single track, but it was dry and dusty. It's likely that I lost consciousness as soon as my head hit the ground and then lost all ability to roll with the crash or protect my head- essentially my body steamrolled my head resulting in a dislocation and complete fracture of my 4th vertebrae. I was lucky not to have had any spinal cord damage and was told by a number of medical professionals including my spinal surgeon that I was very lucky. I had surgery right away and received a C3-4 fusion with a nice metal plate and ti screws and have spend 11 weeks wearing an Aspen Collar.
Now keep in mind that I was wearing an xc lid, which obviously isn't compatible with a Leatt Brace, however I am almost certain that if I had of been wearing my DH lid and brace (I do own a Leatt Brace that I started wearing for downhill at the start of the season), that there is no way that my neck would have fractured in this way, or been able to roll under my body as the impact damage on my helmet suggests happened. It's also possible that my burlier D3 would have prevented the severe concussion and loss of consciousness in the first place, which may or may not have made the difference to the resulting neck injury - who knows?
To me this brings up another big question. With most new xc or all mountain bikes rivalling downhill bikes in capabilities and function, speeds on even mellow xc rides can easily reach that of a lot of downhill runs. Yet most people - including myself, just wear xc lids when they ride "all mountain". Every week these days you see a new all-mountain video edit with pros shredding trails at top speed with xc lids. It's pretty obvious to me that my helmet wasn't nearly up to the task for my crash, as in addition to the neck injury, I spent almost 3 weeks in bed and many more with ongoing problems recovering from severe post-concussion vertigo. Almost 3 months later the side effects are finally minimal enough that I can start driving again and slowly get back into riding.
I have been looking for an xc lid that has maximum protection, but from now on, I plan to bring my DH lid and Leatt with me on any xc rides that have long sustained descents. I was lucky enough to have a second chance, to me it's just not worth the risk. I'll never ride DH without it again. Most of my friends who didn't already have braces now have gone out and bought one which I am very thankful for. In a lot of cases it may not make a difference, but with any chance at all that it COULD help, why not wear it in case? It could be the life changing difference.
This summer I fractured my C-4 on a cross country ride after some sort of crash involving my head rolling under my body. I can't give specifics as to the cause, as I was knocked out cold for 15 minutes and no one I was with saw the accident - I have no recollection of the accident or the trail leading up to it, but for reference it was an easy single track, but it was dry and dusty. It's likely that I lost consciousness as soon as my head hit the ground and then lost all ability to roll with the crash or protect my head- essentially my body steamrolled my head resulting in a dislocation and complete fracture of my 4th vertebrae. I was lucky not to have had any spinal cord damage and was told by a number of medical professionals including my spinal surgeon that I was very lucky. I had surgery right away and received a C3-4 fusion with a nice metal plate and ti screws and have spend 11 weeks wearing an Aspen Collar.
Now keep in mind that I was wearing an xc lid, which obviously isn't compatible with a Leatt Brace, however I am almost certain that if I had of been wearing my DH lid and brace (I do own a Leatt Brace that I started wearing for downhill at the start of the season), that there is no way that my neck would have fractured in this way, or been able to roll under my body as the impact damage on my helmet suggests happened. It's also possible that my burlier D3 would have prevented the severe concussion and loss of consciousness in the first place, which may or may not have made the difference to the resulting neck injury - who knows?
To me this brings up another big question. With most new xc or all mountain bikes rivalling downhill bikes in capabilities and function, speeds on even mellow xc rides can easily reach that of a lot of downhill runs. Yet most people - including myself, just wear xc lids when they ride "all mountain". Every week these days you see a new all-mountain video edit with pros shredding trails at top speed with xc lids. It's pretty obvious to me that my helmet wasn't nearly up to the task for my crash, as in addition to the neck injury, I spent almost 3 weeks in bed and many more with ongoing problems recovering from severe post-concussion vertigo. Almost 3 months later the side effects are finally minimal enough that I can start driving again and slowly get back into riding.
I have been looking for an xc lid that has maximum protection, but from now on, I plan to bring my DH lid and Leatt with me on any xc rides that have long sustained descents. I was lucky enough to have a second chance, to me it's just not worth the risk. I'll never ride DH without it again. Most of my friends who didn't already have braces now have gone out and bought one which I am very thankful for. In a lot of cases it may not make a difference, but with any chance at all that it COULD help, why not wear it in case? It could be the life changing difference.
Posted by beeeom at 03:16 PM on 10-19-2011
because smashing and elbow, shoulder, etc, will not leave you ina chair for the rest of your life or dead.
fullface, leatt, and 5.10s are hands down the most important pieces of riding gear (for gravity fueled riding anyways)
Quote:
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Originally Posted by NeverlosT
(Post 2579057)
It always mistifies me when people JUST wear these braces though. I mean, the chances of smashing your elbow, shoulder, whatever are so much higher than the kind of impact that a leatte :might: help with. Different strokes for different folks I guess.
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fullface, leatt, and 5.10s are hands down the most important pieces of riding gear (for gravity fueled riding anyways)
Posted by CarMan at 03:20 PM on 10-19-2011
This has always bothered me and was hoping that helmet manufacturers would come up with a XC/Trail/AM lighter duty full face helmet to work properly with a neck brace.
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Originally Posted by Beard of Bees
(Post 2579278)
speeds on even mellow xc rides can easily reach that on a lot of downhill runs. Yet most people - including myself, just wear xc lids when they ride "all mountain".
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Posted by FlipFantasia at 05:22 PM on 10-19-2011
I broke my neck and back on the mellow part at the end of an xc ride when my fork broke, it wasn't on anything gnarly and I never would wear a full face on the ride I did. sometimes shit happens. when I get a neck brace for dh'ing it's going to be either the omega or the new nexis one since I can't bring myself to wear something that could potentially risk other injuries, ie. CB., Sternum, thoracic spine....I had a huge head over heels scorpion this summer and walked away fine, the body is pretty strong and flexible too. while one should take the precautions they feel are necessary for themselves I also believe it isn't good to wear something that may restrict movement and cause one to not ride relaxed which I think could also be a risk for crashing. At least we're starting to see some new concepts and other ideas and options, good to have choices.
I broke my neck and back on the mellow part at the end of an xc ride when my fork broke, it wasn't on anything gnarly and I never would wear a full face on the ride I did. sometimes shit happens. when I get a neck brace for dh'ing it's going to be either the omega or the new nexis one since I can't bring myself to wear something that could potentially risk other injuries, ie. CB., Sternum, thoracic spine....I had a huge head over heels scorpion this summer and walked away fine, the body is pretty strong and flexible too. while one should take the precautions they feel are necessary for themselves I also believe it isn't good to wear something that may restrict movement and cause one to not ride relaxed which I think could also be a risk for crashing. At least we're starting to see some new concepts and other ideas and options, good to have choices.
Posted by Carrot Top at 06:24 PM on 10-19-2011
I also don't own a neck brace, mainly because of the price and the fact that there is no solid evidence that the things actually work. Many people can claim that the brace has saved their neck, but how would they now that it really made a difference unless they reproduced the exact same crash while not wearing the brace. Are there any statistics that show a reduction of neck/spinal related injuries since the introduction/popularity of bicycle specific neck braces? I'm sure there must be something out there from all the information that the EMS people collect.
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Originally Posted by NeverlosT
(Post 2579057)
I havent gotten one of these badboys yet. It is a ton of money and I have been crashing all my life. For the amount of neck injuries that actually go down, it seems like everyone has jumped on this bandwagon awfully fast.
Beats me, but they should have some statistics and stuff to back up the need for these. Otherwise it looks like $700 worth of decoration. I mean, it does look badass. It always mistifies me when people JUST wear these braces though. I mean, the chances of smashing your elbow, shoulder, whatever are so much higher than the kind of impact that a leatte :might: help with. Different strokes for different folks I guess. |
Posted by ReductiMat at 06:46 PM on 10-19-2011
If you are waiting for any statistics on this, you will likely need to wait ten to fifteen years, assuming people somehow manage to find a way to record all the injuries taking place on mountain bikes. Without that information, any conclusions would be pure conjecture.
If you think it will help, wear it. If you don't think it will help, don't.
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Originally Posted by Carrot Top
(Post 2579354)
I also don't own a neck brace, mainly because of the price and the fact that there is no solid evidence that the things actually work. Many people can claim that the brace has saved their neck, but how would they now that it really made a difference unless they reproduced the exact same crash while not wearing the brace. Are there any statistics that show a reduction of neck/spinal related injuries since the introduction/popularity of bicycle specific neck braces? I'm sure there must be something out there from all the information that the EMS people collect.
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If you think it will help, wear it. If you don't think it will help, don't.
Posted by pwrslm at 08:26 PM on 10-19-2011
It's interesting that people appreciate that what they are doing may result in a broken neck and instead of not doing it we strap on some plastic/carbon/nylon and f'in giver.
imho, the best safety equipment is between your ears.
It's interesting that people appreciate that what they are doing may result in a broken neck and instead of not doing it we strap on some plastic/carbon/nylon and f'in giver.
imho, the best safety equipment is between your ears.
Posted by semaj at 08:50 PM on 10-19-2011
As someone who had C1 and C7 fractures 2 years ago, I choose to ride with a Leatt 100% of the time. I feel naked without it actually.
My injury was sustained by an OTB off a 7' ladder bridge drop onto my forehead which caused me to scorpion and wind myself. I was lucky enough to walk away and not require surgery or a collar for my fractures. My riding buddy witnessed the crash and said my backpack slid up behind my helmet on impact and likely prevented further damage to my neck. Of course I can't prove that, no one can, but I feel safer wearing my Leatt personally. I do have concerns about the spine plate when it comes to scorpions, so I will continue to watch brace technology as it evolves.
Oh yeah, I also wear the TLD shirt that several others mentioned above and like it a lot.
As someone who had C1 and C7 fractures 2 years ago, I choose to ride with a Leatt 100% of the time. I feel naked without it actually.
My injury was sustained by an OTB off a 7' ladder bridge drop onto my forehead which caused me to scorpion and wind myself. I was lucky enough to walk away and not require surgery or a collar for my fractures. My riding buddy witnessed the crash and said my backpack slid up behind my helmet on impact and likely prevented further damage to my neck. Of course I can't prove that, no one can, but I feel safer wearing my Leatt personally. I do have concerns about the spine plate when it comes to scorpions, so I will continue to watch brace technology as it evolves.
Oh yeah, I also wear the TLD shirt that several others mentioned above and like it a lot.
Posted by cam@nsmb.com at 10:53 PM on 10-19-2011
So are you a rider?
In my experience a lot of the worst crashes happen when nothing too gnarly is happening. Not all - but there's no way to be a mountain biker and avoid falling. There is randomness in the forest and on your bike. Sometimes other riders do unexpected things to cause crashes.
Even road riders and XC riders have bad crashes.
You can't outsmart gravity.
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Originally Posted by pwrslm
(Post 2579386)
It's interesting that people appreciate that what they are doing may result in a broken neck and instead of not doing it we strap on some plastic/carbon/nylon and f'in giver.
imho, the best safety equipment is between your ears. |
In my experience a lot of the worst crashes happen when nothing too gnarly is happening. Not all - but there's no way to be a mountain biker and avoid falling. There is randomness in the forest and on your bike. Sometimes other riders do unexpected things to cause crashes.
Even road riders and XC riders have bad crashes.
You can't outsmart gravity.
Posted by Bryan at 11:12 PM on 10-19-2011
I've heard of people falling down stairs and breaking their neck...should we not do that due to the possibility of it happening?
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Originally Posted by pwrslm
(Post 2579386)
It's interesting that people appreciate that what they are doing may result in a broken neck and instead of not doing it we strap on some plastic/carbon/nylon and f'in giver.
imho, the best safety equipment is between your ears. |
Posted by pwrslm at 05:39 AM on 10-20-2011
I ride everyday. I commute on a bicycle, Fromme/Seymour/Cypress on the weekends, and ride a motorcycle. I spend more time on two wheels than any other means of transport. I am also someone who has walked away from an L4 fracture accident that was 100% the other person's 'fault'; I still believe that I could have prevented it.
I was trying to make the point that instead of strapping on more safety gear, people would be better served by riding within their limits. We're not all born with the same innate athletic gifts; some of us are just not meant to bomb a DH course or do backflips.
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Originally Posted by cam@nsmb.com
(Post 2579451)
So are you a rider?
... You can't outsmart gravity. |
I was trying to make the point that instead of strapping on more safety gear, people would be better served by riding within their limits. We're not all born with the same innate athletic gifts; some of us are just not meant to bomb a DH course or do backflips.
Posted by ReductiMat at 07:36 AM on 10-20-2011
My chain got sucked out in front of the chain ring. My crank arms got locked up at 1:00 and 7:00 right before I hit a jump on lower A-Line. A trail I've ridden 4,399,387 times.
I was well within my limits. Shit happens.
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Originally Posted by pwrslm
(Post 2579484)
I was trying to make the point that instead of strapping on more safety gear, people would be better served by riding within their limits. We're not all born with the same innate athletic gifts; some of us are just not meant to bomb a DH course or do backflips.
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I was well within my limits. Shit happens.
Posted by cam@nsmb.com at 08:06 AM on 10-20-2011
I'm not saying you don't have a point - but you have also proven mine. Thinking you can beat the odds on your bike and never crash is like thinking you can beat the stock market - hubris that will make you pay one day. And the fact that you could have prevented the crash you mention didn't help you much did it?
Your advice is sound. We should use your heads and ride within our limits but there are things that happen while you are riding that no amount of care and skill will prevent. Which is why you don't need to be as reckless and wonton (and seemingly unbreakable) as Robbie Bourdon to wear protective gear.
Do you wear a helmet?
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Originally Posted by pwrslm
(Post 2579484)
I am also someone who has walked away from an L4 fracture accident that was 100% the other person's 'fault'; I still believe that I could have prevented it.
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Your advice is sound. We should use your heads and ride within our limits but there are things that happen while you are riding that no amount of care and skill will prevent. Which is why you don't need to be as reckless and wonton (and seemingly unbreakable) as Robbie Bourdon to wear protective gear.
Do you wear a helmet?
Posted by pwrslm at 09:09 AM on 10-20-2011
I always wear a helmet because as ReductiMat so eloquently put it: "shit happens". Helmets have a long and empirically supported record of reducing injury. I don't think Leatt has demonstrated that their product actually reduces the risk or severity of neck injury. They've not published data supporting their claims; their testing has been in-house.
They are preying on peoples fear of serious injury to create a niche in the market for themselves.
edit: If you do a quick google scholar search you'll see how much effort Leatt has put into patents to protect their idea and a lack of peer review despite 10 years of development.
I always wear a helmet because as ReductiMat so eloquently put it: "shit happens". Helmets have a long and empirically supported record of reducing injury. I don't think Leatt has demonstrated that their product actually reduces the risk or severity of neck injury. They've not published data supporting their claims; their testing has been in-house.
They are preying on peoples fear of serious injury to create a niche in the market for themselves.
edit: If you do a quick google scholar search you'll see how much effort Leatt has put into patents to protect their idea and a lack of peer review despite 10 years of development.
Posted by ReductiMat at 09:57 AM on 10-20-2011
So if I understand correctly, you are only interested in safety products that have a long and empirically supported, peer-reviewed record that are ideally patent-free? Anything contrariwise implies snakeoil and should be avoided?
So if I understand correctly, you are only interested in safety products that have a long and empirically supported, peer-reviewed record that are ideally patent-free? Anything contrariwise implies snakeoil and should be avoided?
Posted by pwrslm at 11:19 AM on 10-20-2011
I need more than a fear of breaking my neck to be separated from ~$700.
The Leatt brace has zero empirical support of efficacy while holding ~40 patents. It isn't that difficult to publish in peer review journals, provided you have sound evidence. Given that Leatt hasn't published sets off alarm bells that he has no data supporting his claim that the brace actually works. The number of patents they have shows how motivated they are to protect their intellectual property because they recognize how profitable this could be.
It probably won't hurt you to wear a neck brace, but it probably won't help you either.
I need more than a fear of breaking my neck to be separated from ~$700.
The Leatt brace has zero empirical support of efficacy while holding ~40 patents. It isn't that difficult to publish in peer review journals, provided you have sound evidence. Given that Leatt hasn't published sets off alarm bells that he has no data supporting his claim that the brace actually works. The number of patents they have shows how motivated they are to protect their intellectual property because they recognize how profitable this could be.
It probably won't hurt you to wear a neck brace, but it probably won't help you either.
Posted by ReductiMat at 11:58 AM on 10-20-2011
Since fear is hard to measure, would you be willing to buy and wear a neck brace if it were $20?
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Originally Posted by pwrslm
(Post 2579603)
I need more than a fear of breaking my neck to be separated from ~$700.
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Posted by pwrslm at 12:27 PM on 10-20-2011
haha, good point. I'd try one, but it's likely that it would end up in the closet with my chest protector after a few rides. Riding in armor is like sex with a condom on; sure it's a good idea, but I'd rather accept a little bit of risk and use judgment w.r.t. what I hit. It just feels better to ride sans protection.
haha, good point. I'd try one, but it's likely that it would end up in the closet with my chest protector after a few rides. Riding in armor is like sex with a condom on; sure it's a good idea, but I'd rather accept a little bit of risk and use judgment w.r.t. what I hit. It just feels better to ride sans protection.
Posted by clownmitts at 01:14 PM on 10-20-2011
this is yet more empirical evidence that mountain bikers are breathtakingly stupid
this is yet more empirical evidence that mountain bikers are breathtakingly stupid
Posted by pwrslm at 02:33 PM on 10-20-2011
anecdotal actually.
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Originally Posted by clownmitts
(Post 2579632)
this is yet more empirical evidence that mountain bikers are breathtakingly stupid
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Posted by clownmitts at 07:18 PM on 10-20-2011
no because your posts are in it
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Originally Posted by pwrslm
(Post 2579647)
anecdotal actually.
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Posted by Aeropusher at 07:26 PM on 10-20-2011
.....just as an aside (and since WayneP always cries Moto, let me rally behind AutoRacing)...the makers of the HANS device are also very protective of their patents and have been the same way through their history....and it took a while for them to publish there findings as well.
I've been in favour of the Leatt brace for a while, but price kept me from getting one up until last year (I'm pretty sure I only paid $450 for mine)...early adopters of the HANS device ran up against all the same arguements we're seeing in this forum...everything from price to mobility/visibility concerns....but as the unit has been refined and forensic sciences pointed out how drivers were being killed more and more organizations have made the HANS device or similar unit mandatory. I had one major crash while racing karts during a time when a hard foam horse collar was the only thing available and while I walked away from my crash with a destroyed helmet, 2 weeks later another racer in a similar style crash died on impact. We were wearing the same gear, right down to the collar...I was just lucky...and I've been lucky a couple times since. I'm sure given the impacts we both suffered that a Leatt style brace or HANS device may have offered at least a hope of that racer surviving his crash. I'm not going to say a Leatt brace will protect you from every possible life threatening injury but having seen how a similar item works in open wheel motorsports I'll stand behind it. I inadvertently tested mine this year on Dirt Merchant. I got up and walked away after putting my shoulder back into place. The only thing I noticed was some bruising the next day that showed the outline of the brace on the side of my body where I hit the hardest.
I'm not sure the Leatt is the best option, but for the time being it's one of the options we have available....if you're a believer, you drink the kool-aid...if you're not, you wait and see what happens to those of us who did drink the kool-aid.
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Originally Posted by pwrslm
(Post 2579603)
I need more than a fear of breaking my neck to be separated from ~$700.
The Leatt brace has zero empirical support of efficacy while holding ~40 patents. It isn't that difficult to publish in peer review journals, provided you have sound evidence. Given that Leatt hasn't published sets off alarm bells that he has no data supporting his claim that the brace actually works. The number of patents they have shows how motivated they are to protect their intellectual property because they recognize how profitable this could be. It probably won't hurt you to wear a neck brace, but it probably won't help you either. |
I've been in favour of the Leatt brace for a while, but price kept me from getting one up until last year (I'm pretty sure I only paid $450 for mine)...early adopters of the HANS device ran up against all the same arguements we're seeing in this forum...everything from price to mobility/visibility concerns....but as the unit has been refined and forensic sciences pointed out how drivers were being killed more and more organizations have made the HANS device or similar unit mandatory. I had one major crash while racing karts during a time when a hard foam horse collar was the only thing available and while I walked away from my crash with a destroyed helmet, 2 weeks later another racer in a similar style crash died on impact. We were wearing the same gear, right down to the collar...I was just lucky...and I've been lucky a couple times since. I'm sure given the impacts we both suffered that a Leatt style brace or HANS device may have offered at least a hope of that racer surviving his crash. I'm not going to say a Leatt brace will protect you from every possible life threatening injury but having seen how a similar item works in open wheel motorsports I'll stand behind it. I inadvertently tested mine this year on Dirt Merchant. I got up and walked away after putting my shoulder back into place. The only thing I noticed was some bruising the next day that showed the outline of the brace on the side of my body where I hit the hardest.
I'm not sure the Leatt is the best option, but for the time being it's one of the options we have available....if you're a believer, you drink the kool-aid...if you're not, you wait and see what happens to those of us who did drink the kool-aid.
Posted by Carrot Top at 07:43 PM on 10-20-2011
So why are there no statistics/tests to prove that the Leatt actually works?
So why are there no statistics/tests to prove that the Leatt actually works?
Posted by Bryan at 07:48 PM on 10-20-2011
hard to find volunteers?
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Originally Posted by Carrot Top
(Post 2579761)
So why are there no statistics/tests to prove that the Leatt actually works?
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Posted by Sparkplug at 07:57 PM on 10-20-2011
We continually make risk assessments in the sport of mtb'n. Ultimately, as long as you are willing to accept the potential consequences of your decisions, then all is good. But it would sure suck to have a bad outcome and be continually wondering, what if?
We continually make risk assessments in the sport of mtb'n. Ultimately, as long as you are willing to accept the potential consequences of your decisions, then all is good. But it would sure suck to have a bad outcome and be continually wondering, what if?
Posted by ReductiMat at 08:07 PM on 10-20-2011
Unless you can think of an ingenious way to gather the data without breaking the necks of some of your volunteers, you are going to have to wait a very long time for any sort of 'evidence'.
If you think it's a tax on the stupid, that is your prerogative.
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Originally Posted by Carrot Top
(Post 2579761)
So why are there no statistics/tests to prove that the Leatt actually works?
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If you think it's a tax on the stupid, that is your prerogative.
Posted by Bryan at 08:10 PM on 10-20-2011
I think Alpinestars did some testing on cadavers in their design...or so I read somewhere. I wonder how much they cost, or can you sell them back if all you did was break their neck?
I think Alpinestars did some testing on cadavers in their design...or so I read somewhere. I wonder how much they cost, or can you sell them back if all you did was break their neck?
Posted by ReductiMat at 08:22 PM on 10-20-2011
But how did they know whether the cadaver was riding within its means?
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Originally Posted by Bryan
(Post 2579775)
I think Alpinestars did some testing on cadavers in their design...or so I read somewhere. I wonder how much they cost, or can you sell them back if all you did was break their neck?
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Posted by Carrot Top at 08:56 PM on 10-20-2011
You don't necessarily need volunteers, medical scientists could research at what point the human spine breaks and then somehow use those findings to make a human replica made out of a material with the same breakage point and test the brace to see how effective it is.
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Originally Posted by Bryan
(Post 2579764)
hard to find volunteers?
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Originally Posted by ReductiMat
(Post 2579773)
Unless you can think of an ingenious way to gather the data without breaking the necks of some of your volunteers, you are going to have to wait a very long time for any sort of 'evidence'.
If you think it's a tax on the stupid, that is your prerogative. |
Posted by ReductiMat at 09:03 PM on 10-20-2011
You make it sound pretty easy. What is the breakage point set at?
Out of curiosity, how much do you think something of the above would cost?
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Originally Posted by Carrot Top
(Post 2579795)
You don't necessarily need volunteers, medical scientists could research at what point the human spine breaks and then somehow use those findings to make a human replica made out of a material with the same breakage point and test the brace to see how effective it is.
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Out of curiosity, how much do you think something of the above would cost?
Posted by clownmitts at 09:12 PM on 10-20-2011
you sound like you're volunteering
make it so lieutenant
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Originally Posted by Carrot Top
(Post 2579795)
You don't necessarily need volunteers, medical scientists could research at what point the human spine breaks and then somehow use those findings to make a human replica made out of a material with the same breakage point and test the brace to see how effective it is.
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make it so lieutenant
Posted by Carrot Top at 09:21 AM on 10-21-2011
Probably way too much, and that's why it's not being done.
I'll volunteer if you do
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Originally Posted by ReductiMat
(Post 2579797)
You make it sound pretty easy. What is the breakage point set at?
Out of curiosity, how much do you think something of the above would cost? |
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Originally Posted by clownmitts
(Post 2579802)
you sound like you're volunteering
make it so lieutenant |
Posted by Endless Biking at 09:42 AM on 10-21-2011
Good discussion. These braces can definitely save necks, I've seen it first hand unfortunately.
Sure, accidents can happen anywhere. I almost broke my neck commuting to work a few weeks ago coming around a blind corner to a wall of trees down. Did I have Leatt/full face on, no? Point is, strange things can happen anywhere. When I have the choice; bike park, DH laps, etc I will wear a Leatt. I'm prioritizing my head and neck, it's not a fashion statement as some people claim. ????
FYI, if any of you want to try one, we have a few demo models at EB that you can try, just need to put down a credit card number (pre-auth) and sign a waiver.
If you get it fit right, you don't even notice when you ride.
DB@EB
Good discussion. These braces can definitely save necks, I've seen it first hand unfortunately.
Sure, accidents can happen anywhere. I almost broke my neck commuting to work a few weeks ago coming around a blind corner to a wall of trees down. Did I have Leatt/full face on, no? Point is, strange things can happen anywhere. When I have the choice; bike park, DH laps, etc I will wear a Leatt. I'm prioritizing my head and neck, it's not a fashion statement as some people claim. ????
FYI, if any of you want to try one, we have a few demo models at EB that you can try, just need to put down a credit card number (pre-auth) and sign a waiver.
If you get it fit right, you don't even notice when you ride.
DB@EB
Posted by L. Hutz Esq at 10:02 AM on 10-21-2011
It would be interesting to get the stats from the yearly bike park carnage.
How many spinals with or without a brace?
Not conclusive, but if we waited for conclusive seatbelts would still be optional.
It would be interesting to get the stats from the yearly bike park carnage.
How many spinals with or without a brace?
Not conclusive, but if we waited for conclusive seatbelts would still be optional.
Posted by Lady Gravity at 10:11 AM on 10-21-2011
someone needs to send this to mythbusters. if anyone can test it, they can
someone needs to send this to mythbusters. if anyone can test it, they can
Posted by rewoga at 11:15 AM on 10-21-2011
I've had my armour altered to fit with my Leatt. I'll have something on my Blog about it this weekend.
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Originally Posted by cam@nsmb.com
(Post 2579071)
That's another interesting aspect to this. When there was a fatality at Whistler a few years ago - on Crabapple Hits - apparently the rider died of internal injuries. With the Leatt you can't wear upper body armour and protect your torso. Broken ribs and punctured lungs can be very serious injuries and wearing a Leatt means you can't do anything to prevent these.
Reduct - what do you mean by "not letting me roll with the wipeout." It seems to me rolling is what you'd want to do no? |
Posted by ReductiMat at 11:40 AM on 10-21-2011
That ratio wouldn't tell you much without knowing how many people were wearing a brace.
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Originally Posted by L. Hutz Esq
(Post 2579908)
It would be interesting to get the stats from the yearly bike park carnage.
How many spinals with or without a brace? Not conclusive, but if we waited for conclusive seatbelts would still be optional. |
Posted by craw at 11:42 AM on 10-21-2011
The mountain could collect this data when people come in to buy/renew their passes. A quick questionnaire asking if you typically ride with a pack, tools, neck brace, goggles, knees vs full legs, Dainese jackets, etc. This data would be super useful.
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Originally Posted by ReductiMat
(Post 2579971)
That ratio wouldn't tell you much without knowing how many people were wearing a brace.
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Posted by L. Hutz Esq at 01:48 PM on 10-21-2011
I think the er sample would still be useful.
Look at the people going through the ER (or even just coming into contact with patrol) - this is your sample of folks that have had a serious bail. Granted, there could be arguments that the sample is skewed because maybe brace using bikers are more apt to be the ones that push the limits, or maybe the brace wearers are protected enough that they walk away etc. However, if certain de-habilitating spinal injuries occur to the same percentage of brace wearing crashees as non-brace wearing crashees, it is evidence that the brace does not live up to its billing. If there is a statistically significant difference in the number of these type of injuries among the two groups then that is evidence to assist people to make their own spending decisions.
Alternatively, it would not take much to get a good idea of the percentage of riders with braces. Stand at the bottom for a set period of time, count, extrapolate.
I am not going to wait until someone provides scientific "proof". Remember, all we have is evidence of smoking's effect on your chances of getting lung cancer not "proof".
I think the er sample would still be useful.
Look at the people going through the ER (or even just coming into contact with patrol) - this is your sample of folks that have had a serious bail. Granted, there could be arguments that the sample is skewed because maybe brace using bikers are more apt to be the ones that push the limits, or maybe the brace wearers are protected enough that they walk away etc. However, if certain de-habilitating spinal injuries occur to the same percentage of brace wearing crashees as non-brace wearing crashees, it is evidence that the brace does not live up to its billing. If there is a statistically significant difference in the number of these type of injuries among the two groups then that is evidence to assist people to make their own spending decisions.
Alternatively, it would not take much to get a good idea of the percentage of riders with braces. Stand at the bottom for a set period of time, count, extrapolate.
I am not going to wait until someone provides scientific "proof". Remember, all we have is evidence of smoking's effect on your chances of getting lung cancer not "proof".
Posted by cam@nsmb.com at 03:30 PM on 10-21-2011
Can you say more about this DB? You saw it first hand? So you saw a crash that you think may have resulted in a spinal injury but didn't? How do you know that?
Thanks!
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Originally Posted by Endless Biking
(Post 2579901)
Good discussion. These braces can definitely save necks, I've seen it first hand unfortunately.
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Thanks!
Posted by ReductiMat at 05:04 PM on 10-21-2011
I'm a data whore and agree that anything would be good to have. But I contend any sort of concrete evidence is very far off (if ever attainable).
Like I mentioned very early on, I have no idea if it helped or exacerbated my injury this year. However, I think the theory is sound and will continue wearing it. Should someone wish to judge me for wearing it, all the power to them.
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Originally Posted by L. Hutz Esq
(Post 2580028)
I think the er sample would still be useful.
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Like I mentioned very early on, I have no idea if it helped or exacerbated my injury this year. However, I think the theory is sound and will continue wearing it. Should someone wish to judge me for wearing it, all the power to them.
Posted by FlipFantasia at 05:24 PM on 10-21-2011
I don't judge people who wear them, just like people that wear them shouldn't judge those that choose not too.
I don't judge people who wear them, just like people that wear them shouldn't judge those that choose not too.
Posted by Endless Biking at 08:59 PM on 10-21-2011
Rider cased gap jump and got bucked forward, rode front wheel and OTB in lawn dart manner. Rider took header, came out concussed with bruised collarbone, no spinal injuries. Convinced me.
DB@EB
Quote:
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Originally Posted by cam@nsmb.com
(Post 2580076)
Can you say more about this DB? You saw it first hand? So you saw a crash that you think may have resulted in a spinal injury but didn't? How do you know that?
Thanks! |
DB@EB
Posted by french_connection at 10:26 PM on 10-21-2011
I find the alpinestar brace to be less bulky than the leatt myself. I have had head landings and scorpions and I am still here to bugger you up!
I find the alpinestar brace to be less bulky than the leatt myself. I have had head landings and scorpions and I am still here to bugger you up!
Posted by french_connection at 08:23 PM on 10-23-2011
The helmet choice is also important when wearing a neck brace!!!
Since we are on the topic; All neck brace require to fit properly and make close point on contact on the brace to provide protection. A lot of MTB helmets are not design to fit with braces, most are shallow and barely protect the lower rear of the head. Some have too shallow jaw protection.
Of my 2 helmets, only one work well with my neck brace, my Fox V3. When I wear the other helmet, my Bell Drop, my brace wont make contact before my jaw hit the brace...
food for thoughts if you want to actually be protected and not just look cool... :)
The helmet choice is also important when wearing a neck brace!!!
Since we are on the topic; All neck brace require to fit properly and make close point on contact on the brace to provide protection. A lot of MTB helmets are not design to fit with braces, most are shallow and barely protect the lower rear of the head. Some have too shallow jaw protection.
Of my 2 helmets, only one work well with my neck brace, my Fox V3. When I wear the other helmet, my Bell Drop, my brace wont make contact before my jaw hit the brace...
food for thoughts if you want to actually be protected and not just look cool... :)
Posted by Sparkplug at 10:40 AM on 10-24-2011
I would say that fit is very important to the brace being effective. I took quite a bit of time trying out the different spacers etc (according to the manual) and noticed huge differences in fit. I wonder if some of the collarbone injuries have occured because the brace hasn't been sitting in the correct spot.
I would say that fit is very important to the brace being effective. I took quite a bit of time trying out the different spacers etc (according to the manual) and noticed huge differences in fit. I wonder if some of the collarbone injuries have occured because the brace hasn't been sitting in the correct spot.
Posted by Bradical at 01:18 PM on 10-24-2011
Can you wear a hydration pack ?
Can you wear a hydration pack ?
Posted by Bryan at 01:25 PM on 10-24-2011
yes and Leatt even makes their own too.
I've worn a Dakine pack and it works, but not perfectly.
yes and Leatt even makes their own too.
I've worn a Dakine pack and it works, but not perfectly.
Posted by ReductiMat at 01:40 PM on 10-24-2011
Yup.. I've worn both a Dakine Apex and the new Camelbak Boss just fine.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Bradical
(Post 2580949)
Can you wear a hydration pack ?
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Posted by mrraulduke at 10:21 AM on 10-27-2011
so how long until these become mandatory at all gravity orientated races?
so how long until these become mandatory at all gravity orientated races?
Posted by FlipFantasia at 10:35 AM on 10-27-2011
I don't think they can, or should, as there is no conclusive proof that they do anything, and further, everyone is different and you can't mandate something that may or may not work for everyone.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by mrraulduke
(Post 2582350)
so how long until these become mandatory at all gravity orientated races?
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Posted by Bradical at 08:15 PM on 11-02-2011
Purchased at DBX Comp 2 yesterday, tested it today on Fromme and found it worked really well. My initial concern was that it would be quit restricting being that I'd riding with Troy Lee shock Doctor armor, a Decline Drafter hydration pack and a jacket. I was relieved that I didn't feel claustrophobic at all, especially being that it would be unreturnable after I rode with it.
It only took Upper Oil Can to settle in with it.... Nice to now feel a little more invincible.
Purchased at DBX Comp 2 yesterday, tested it today on Fromme and found it worked really well. My initial concern was that it would be quit restricting being that I'd riding with Troy Lee shock Doctor armor, a Decline Drafter hydration pack and a jacket. I was relieved that I didn't feel claustrophobic at all, especially being that it would be unreturnable after I rode with it.
It only took Upper Oil Can to settle in with it.... Nice to now feel a little more invincible.
Posted by cam@nsmb.com at 09:16 PM on 11-02-2011
In 2001, when the last jump on the biker X was substantial, (someone told me 35' from lip to lip) I got bucked riding with a blown shock. I over shot the landing and the impact was mostly on my face and chest.
I was knocked out for several minutes and semi conscious for hours. I had a pretty serious head injury, put an extra air hole through my lip, broke some ribs and scraped most of my body parts (and I may have compressed a vertebrae that was discovered later - but I can't say for sure it happened then). But that was it.
Not being hurt when the mechanism of injury is severe doesn't prove much except luck. I was lucky and your friend may have been too. Or his brace helped him - but we certainly can't call it proof.
This really is the sort of thing that requires clinical evidence and more study imho.
But we don't yet have evidence (aside from an anecdotal sample) that these braces do what they are advertised to do.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Endless Biking
(Post 2580209)
Rider cased gap jump and got bucked forward, rode front wheel and OTB in lawn dart manner. Rider took header, came out concussed with bruised collarbone, no spinal injuries. Convinced me.
DB@EB |
I was knocked out for several minutes and semi conscious for hours. I had a pretty serious head injury, put an extra air hole through my lip, broke some ribs and scraped most of my body parts (and I may have compressed a vertebrae that was discovered later - but I can't say for sure it happened then). But that was it.
Not being hurt when the mechanism of injury is severe doesn't prove much except luck. I was lucky and your friend may have been too. Or his brace helped him - but we certainly can't call it proof.
This really is the sort of thing that requires clinical evidence and more study imho.
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Originally Posted by L. Hutz Esq
(Post 2580028)
I am not going to wait until someone provides scientific "proof". Remember, all we have is evidence of smoking's effect on your chances of getting lung cancer not "proof".
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Posted by metroneck at 10:11 PM on 11-02-2011
I've been on the fence, but will most likely get one. Although it is my understanding, that most spinal injuries that cause paralysis are from compression, which the braces do not seem to protect against.
I've been on the fence, but will most likely get one. Although it is my understanding, that most spinal injuries that cause paralysis are from compression, which the braces do not seem to protect against.
Posted by L. Hutz Esq at 11:10 AM on 11-03-2011
According to leatt we do, and to some that is enough.
According to my experience they do, and to me that is enough evidence.
(Plus, I have told my wife that it makes what I do on my bike safer, and I think that makes her worry less)
I agree that more research needs to be done. I don't think that "clinical" type of evidence is required as the real world doesn't happen in a lab no matter how well you design the study. A statistically significant sample of what is happening in the real world would be very useful in helping people come to a reasoned decision.
For example, the smoking lobby argued for years that as no clinical study "proved" that their product caused cancer, all the evidence against them was anecdotal.
And don't get me wrong I am not sugesting that they be mandated in anyway. It is a personal decision.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by cam@nsmb.com
(Post 2584534)
But we don't yet have evidence (aside from an anecdotal sample) that these braces do what they are advertised to do. |
According to my experience they do, and to me that is enough evidence.
(Plus, I have told my wife that it makes what I do on my bike safer, and I think that makes her worry less)
I agree that more research needs to be done. I don't think that "clinical" type of evidence is required as the real world doesn't happen in a lab no matter how well you design the study. A statistically significant sample of what is happening in the real world would be very useful in helping people come to a reasoned decision.
For example, the smoking lobby argued for years that as no clinical study "proved" that their product caused cancer, all the evidence against them was anecdotal.
And don't get me wrong I am not sugesting that they be mandated in anyway. It is a personal decision.
Posted by G Later at 05:42 AM on 12-01-2011
So, who has seen or heard of someone wearing one of these and still getting a neck injury? Maybe that is a better indication of the protection it provides...
So, who has seen or heard of someone wearing one of these and still getting a neck injury? Maybe that is a better indication of the protection it provides...
Posted by skifreak at 10:12 AM on 12-01-2011
Most common complaints are injuries to the respective bones down the kinetic chain.. collar bones, shoulders, ribs, t-spine.
That being said - I attended 2 bad crashes this year at dh races where the brace was likely a factor in the rider walking away.
What I don't like to see is poorly fitted braces. skinny kids with 3 inches of gap between the brace and their helmet is no good, either is a poorly fitted helmet.
Like all things - it only works if you set it up properly.
Most common complaints are injuries to the respective bones down the kinetic chain.. collar bones, shoulders, ribs, t-spine.
That being said - I attended 2 bad crashes this year at dh races where the brace was likely a factor in the rider walking away.
What I don't like to see is poorly fitted braces. skinny kids with 3 inches of gap between the brace and their helmet is no good, either is a poorly fitted helmet.
Like all things - it only works if you set it up properly.
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