Dorado Tested
Worth A Month's Salary?
Words by Arthur Gaillot. Photos by Stephen Wilde.
Date: 2009-10-06
Summer has gone by and Fall is clearly upon us. After many months riding the 2009 Manitou Dorado on my trusty Rocky Mountain Flatline, it is time to share with NSMB readers the low-down on one of the more talked about suspension products of the year. Most, if not all of you, have seen multiple pictures of the new Dorado in print and online, in Whistler line-ups, Crankworx booths and maybe even on the trails. Reviews are now being published through various sources; impressions have been made and opinions have been formed.
I’m going to take a slightly different approach to this particular review, so please bear with me.
This summer has been busy balancing play and work: working enough to afford the trips and gear yet leaving / creating enough time to use the gear, take the trips and ride mountain bikes most days of a week. Full schedule right there. The perspective of this review will echo this: early season downhill races, a total of two weeks of Whistler Bike Park, many a Pemby shuttle, countless Shore-Squamish rides, with a few road trips tossed in here and there for good measure. Overall expectations for this fork are proportional to/in line with the $3900 CDN/$2775 US MSRP. The evaluation criteria, based on fit and finish, function, repair/riding time ratio, and overall value reflects these expectations.
A retail price exceeding a month’s wage for many, combined with Manitou’s queasy track record for quality control and reliability, clearly begs the question: What were they thinking? Add a recent change in ownership and distribution, with a local service center that has yet to prove itself, and I was obviously more than a little confused with what Manitou was trying to achieve in creating such a product at this time. Fast track a few months later; a mish mash of legitimate concerns, product updates/recalls (call them what you want), pleasant surprises and sometimes exceeded expectations, are what I took into account while crafting this review.
Lets get our hands dirty and discuss fit, finish and design related to install and use. Below are the types of details that a product of this price is accountable for:
- Wheel installation: the 20mm thru-axle itself had to be sanded down to fit through a hub. I tried different front hubs to make sure the Easton Havoc hub was not at fault: same issue with a Hadley, Chris King and Formula. Sanded down a pronounced sharp edge around the non-drive side hex-part of the axle as well as the center portion of the axle itself. A light film of grease and the axle now slid through properly.
- Installing and adjusting the fork requires three different sized Allen keys: a four, a five and a six millimeter respectively. The Fox 40 I usually use requires a single five millimeter Allen key for crown, axle and pinch bolts. A detail yes, but I was reminded of this every time I had to take off a wheel, adjust axle-to-crown height, or remove the fork itself. There is no reason to have to use different size heads on these bolts.
- While we are on the topic of bolts, the shallow headed, soft stainless steel bolts are not welcome on a fork of this price tag. Last time I checked these are the same bolts found on the Manitou Stance, an entry-level, mostly Original Equipment Manufacturer double crown fork. After installing and removing the fork twice, bolts were already showing excessive signs of wear, with pronounced rounded edges on the Allen key pattern. This, combined with very shallow bolt heads, does not provide the positive feel expected when installing and fine-tuning a fork of this price range. Bolt quality has been a problem with Manitou products in the past and I had hoped these would be addressed.
- Anodizing Wear: The anodized finish of both crowns showed rapid wear compared to the rest of the fork. Cable routing was diligently executed with no rubbing points, yet the finish lost its lustre faster than I deem acceptable. For comparison, the fork crowns on the Fox 40 I usually use have, after over two seasons of use, hardly the wear of the Dorado equivalents.
- As mentioned in the initial Gear Shot entry, the factory plastic front brake hose guide broke in transport. SuspensionWerx’s improvised replacement guide has solved the problem since. A stock moto-style aluminum guide with a PVC insert would be more appropriate for this level of product.
- ‘Air out’ valve position: With the Dorado’s Dual Air, air is added through the ‘Air in’ valve located on the non-drive side top cap, and removed through the ‘Air out’ valve situated on the same side of the fork, at the bottom of the stanchion tube. When removing the air fitting of a shock pump from the valve itself, a small cloud of oil is often forced out of the interface. The ‘Air out’ valve is very close to the front brake rotor assembly and I took the precaution to wipe off the rotor every time I released the shock pump to avoid contamination. According to Trident Sports (the local Manitou distributor), Manitou is looking to redesign the Dual Air to allow air to be added and removed solely from the top cap assembly. I hope this is taken to production, as it would improve functionality and ease of use. Plus for the less cautious, not going through a set of brake pads due to contamination every time the ‘air out’ valve is used is obviously a benefit. In the meantime, for current Dorado owners, watch the overspray.
- With a 50mm 0 degree stem, and low-rise oversized bar (Chromag Fubar and Ranger stem in this case), bar height had to be increased by over 2/3 of an inch to clear top caps. I later switched to a 60mm stem for bike fit purposes. With the longer stem, clearance was not anymore a problem and I was able to lower the bar height back to preference. Upon further inspection, clearance is less of an issue with the measurements of an integrated Chromag Box stem. To be taken into consideration when selecting parts.
- On the other hand, the same crown offset, that leaves tight bar to top-cap clearance, contributes to ample turning radius. The Dorado has no problem weaving through tighter, slower section of trail, even with an oversized 1.5” head tube and an equally large top and down tube (that often create interference with forks).
Regarding functional issues I had with the Dorado:
- Within the first ten hours of testing, the fork developed a noticeable top-out. The fork was dropped off with Trident Sports as this was a warranty matter. Upon further discussion, I was not the only user encountering this problem; the initial production batch was afflicted. Manitou had come up with a fix and a week later the Dorado was back on the Flatline. A service and routine internal update was also performed. The top-out was now gone and the fork felt fresh again, yet something was not quite right.
- A few rides later, I noticed that the front end of my bike felt lower than usual. The fork was installed at the same axle-to-crown measurement as previously set, so I concluded the loss of travel must have been internal. Indeed, due to a distributor/manufacturer misunderstanding, an additional valve core was installed during service causing the fork to develop an internal vacuum and lower itself in its travel. The fork was taken back to Trident to remove the clandestine valve core. Upon re-installation the Dorado kept its head high and no longer exhibited this behaviour.
Regarding trail performance, experience allows me to compare this fork to the most recent forks I have ridden: a 2009 Rockshox Boxxer, 2007 Manitou Travis and a 2009 Fox 40 RC2. The later two I have owned and the Fox I ran back to back with the Dorado. While the Dorado was in service I would ride the Fox 40, allowing me, I believe, to have a thorough understanding of how both forks perform relative to each other:
- Geometry is unaffected by both the Dorado and the Fox. The Dorado’s axle to crown height has a decent range of adjustment that is only impeded by bar to top cap clearance. Nonetheless, the Dorado can be set to suit most downhill bikes at an axle-to-crown height of 22.5” for an 8” travel fork.
- Air pressure was finally set to 95psi. At this point, I could match the fork’s feel to travelled terrain with the high and low speed compression adjustments, without changing air chamber settings. Both compression settings allow for a wide range of adjustment. In a similar manner to the Fox, clicks are audible and crisp, each click providing a noticeable affect on damping.
- Compliant and stable: The Dorado sits comfortably into its travel and uses the full range of its stroke in a very controlled manner. Small bumps are filtered, medium sized hits are absorbed, heavier impacts and G-outs don’t overwhelm the Dorado. The damping in both the Dorado and the Fox are excellent. I feel like the added compliance of the Manitou comes from the greater give of the chassis’ design. Whereas at speed, the Fox will transmit more feedback to the rider when steering through rough terrain, the Dorado’s give takes the edge off initial impacts before the damping kicks in. The Dorado’s performance allows the rider to confidently navigate through the woods with little regard to undulations of dirt, root, or rock that otherwise would affect the bike’s trajectory.
- Most of the time, the Dorado cycles through its travel silently. A pleasant improvement over the intermittent spring noise coming from the Fox’s thin, large-diameter stanchion tubes. However, the Dorado’s stanchion guards seemed prone to flexing inwards, creating a noticeable scraping sound against the upper tubes which is just as irritating. I remedied the problem by removing the guards, heating them and re-shaping them to bow out slightly as to sit further away from the upper tubes. Reworking fit tolerances between these two components should be considered.
Does the Dorado present good value? Would I buy it?
There are cases when high priced products or services are known as good value. A bicycle service job by a competent mechanic at a higher than average hourly rate, is to me good value. Knowing you can drop off your bike/fork/shock and have all details taken care of in high regard to quality has a consequent price; yet also an equivalently, if not sometimes greater value.
The same concept is applied to the Dorado. A $3900 MSRP price tag on a mountain bike fork automatically and logically greatly elevates a user’s expectations. Having the fork come in a plastic gun case, with a DVD owner’s manual and a shock pump is notable, yet does little to increase the value of the product. When talking about value with the Dorado, it is hard to ignore details that simply do not add up to a $3900 fork. The fit and finish is disappointing and typical of previous Manitou offerings. Reliability wise, the fork has had its issues, detailed above. The fork and local support network has yet to be proven with a limited run of production units that barely have a full season of use. Performance wise the fork does excel. The Dorado performs sometimes better than competitor’s high-end offerings and other times on par. It is an excellent performing downhill fork that towers in every way over Manitou’s previous top-of-the-line Travis. However, a question cannot be left un-answered: does the Dorado perform a $1000 better than its closest competitor price wise, the Fox 40 RC2? The answer is no.
The mountain bike suspension market is becoming more and more competitive, with great efforts being made to improve the form, strength to weight ratio, performance and value of forks and shocks. In my mind, this leaves little if no room on the market for the Dorado in its current form. Manitou’s plan of producing an aluminum-legged Dorado with a much more competitive MSRP is clearly a step in the right direction as the Dorado’s bare chassis and internals deserve to be reworked in a better overall value package.
Photography courtesy of Stephen Wilde
Is $3900 burning a hole in your pocket? Love the smell of carbon in the morning? This could be the fork for you. Anything to spout about Arthur's thorough review or Stephen's sweet photos? Bring it here...
Comments
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Posted by leverfingers at 07:40 AM on 10-07-2009
TSK TSK Arthur. You of all people should know that that's many months salary in our business. Nice pics. Good working over of the fork too.
TSK TSK Arthur. You of all people should know that that's many months salary in our business. Nice pics. Good working over of the fork too.
Posted by pano-dude at 08:03 AM on 10-07-2009
That's big money even with a good shop discount for a fork that needed service twice already.
To me reliability out weighs a marginal performance increase.
The season is to short to be sending a fork away for a week or two.
That's big money even with a good shop discount for a fork that needed service twice already.
To me reliability out weighs a marginal performance increase.
The season is to short to be sending a fork away for a week or two.
Posted by LeeLau at 08:35 AM on 10-07-2009
damn arthur that is a quality review. What an eye for detail you have
damn arthur that is a quality review. What an eye for detail you have
Posted by Wayne P at 08:59 AM on 10-07-2009
Phew, thanks Arthur. No chance I'll be buying that fork now.
Phew, thanks Arthur. No chance I'll be buying that fork now.
Posted by menehune at 09:23 AM on 10-07-2009
EXCELLENT write-up!
sounds like the niner crowd can have that one.
EXCELLENT write-up!
sounds like the niner crowd can have that one.
Posted by Jerry-Rig at 09:30 AM on 10-07-2009
a truly honest review and great photos Stephen.
a truly honest review and great photos Stephen.
Posted by walleater at 09:31 AM on 10-07-2009
A month's salary ha ha ha....
But other than that, that's the best review I've read in a while and shows that the reviewer actually rode the product, and not just a thinly veiled advertisement.
A month's salary ha ha ha....
But other than that, that's the best review I've read in a while and shows that the reviewer actually rode the product, and not just a thinly veiled advertisement.
Posted by biggles604 at 09:51 AM on 10-07-2009
Excellent review. It's refreshing to see someone cut through the hype and just point out all the things, good and bad that would be noticed by most riders. If I'm paying $1500 for a fork, a lot of the points that he raised are totally unacceptable.
Excellent review. It's refreshing to see someone cut through the hype and just point out all the things, good and bad that would be noticed by most riders. If I'm paying $1500 for a fork, a lot of the points that he raised are totally unacceptable.
Posted by Bryon at 09:52 AM on 10-07-2009
Thanks Arthur, you said what I have suspected while not having ridden the Dorado. Use the money you save on a seasons pass at Whistler & Silverstar and you won't be getting passed by anyone!
Thanks Arthur, you said what I have suspected while not having ridden the Dorado. Use the money you save on a seasons pass at Whistler & Silverstar and you won't be getting passed by anyone!
Posted by kperras at 09:55 AM on 10-07-2009
About time someone didn't tuck their balls away when getting a product review out there.
About time someone didn't tuck their balls away when getting a product review out there.
Posted by redrum at 10:03 AM on 10-07-2009
Nice layout and approach to the review.
Photos were pretty nice too!
Was the fork tested a full production fork or a sample/prototype?
Nice layout and approach to the review.
Photos were pretty nice too!
Was the fork tested a full production fork or a sample/prototype?
Posted by forest at 10:06 AM on 10-07-2009
thats by far the best review I've read on NSMB, well done.
thats by far the best review I've read on NSMB, well done.
Posted by King of Fasia at 10:06 AM on 10-07-2009
Haha all those Manitou fans who thought this would be the second coming have now been told. Ah..........not so much. Great review, honest opinion and nice photos.
Haha all those Manitou fans who thought this would be the second coming have now been told. Ah..........not so much. Great review, honest opinion and nice photos.
Posted by roy at 10:06 AM on 10-07-2009
I think it pretty much goes without saying that most forks these days are pretty awesome so unless you're rich, sponsored, or stupid, that Dorado just doesn't make sense for everybody else.
I think it pretty much goes without saying that most forks these days are pretty awesome so unless you're rich, sponsored, or stupid, that Dorado just doesn't make sense for everybody else.
Posted by Arthur at 10:13 AM on 10-07-2009
Thank you all for the positive comments.
Also, thank you to Cam and NSMB readers as a whole for your patience in awaiting the follow-up of the Gear-Entry. I can't lie, it takes me a while to process things!
FYI, the Dorado I tested was part of the 2009 production run.
Arthur Gaillot
Thank you all for the positive comments.
Also, thank you to Cam and NSMB readers as a whole for your patience in awaiting the follow-up of the Gear-Entry. I can't lie, it takes me a while to process things!
FYI, the Dorado I tested was part of the 2009 production run.
Arthur Gaillot
Posted by Mr.Bungle at 10:24 AM on 10-07-2009
I wish all reviews were like this one!
As for the fork, sounds like G&R Chinese Democracy...a long wait with a lot of hype for really nothing.
I wish all reviews were like this one!
As for the fork, sounds like G&R Chinese Democracy...a long wait with a lot of hype for really nothing.
Posted by menehune at 10:33 AM on 10-07-2009
fyp.
or does that fall under the 'rich and stupid' qualifiers?
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by roy
(Post 2248962)
unless you're rich, sponsored, stupid, or ride a niner, that Dorado just doesn't make sense for everybody else.
|
or does that fall under the 'rich and stupid' qualifiers?
Posted by mel22b at 10:51 AM on 10-07-2009
Great review. Very refreshing.
Most of the time I get the feeling the reviewer is worried they wont get more free gear if they are honest.
Great review. Very refreshing.
Most of the time I get the feeling the reviewer is worried they wont get more free gear if they are honest.
Posted by boomforeal at 10:57 AM on 10-07-2009
great review, feel like i'm smarter for having read it. recent nsmb reviews have been outstanding, keep up the great work
great review, feel like i'm smarter for having read it. recent nsmb reviews have been outstanding, keep up the great work
Posted by ebxtreme at 11:02 AM on 10-07-2009
Arthur, thanks for the very detailed and honest review. You didn't sugar coat anything and being able to compare it back-to-back with the Fox 40 really gave perspective.
Thanks,
EB
Arthur, thanks for the very detailed and honest review. You didn't sugar coat anything and being able to compare it back-to-back with the Fox 40 really gave perspective.
Thanks,
EB
Posted by Zedbra at 11:14 AM on 10-07-2009
hey arthur - call me next time you are in squish, fag. great review, bro.
hey arthur - call me next time you are in squish, fag. great review, bro.
Posted by mr_fungle at 11:18 AM on 10-07-2009
Great review - thanks for the honesty!
Great review - thanks for the honesty!
Posted by Chief at 12:02 PM on 10-07-2009
can someone explain how the canadian msrp is $1200 more than the us?
that is a little rediculous
can someone explain how the canadian msrp is $1200 more than the us?
that is a little rediculous
Posted by rewoga at 12:12 PM on 10-07-2009
I liked the comments about the crappy SS bolts and using several different sizes of Allen keys to change anything. I am surprised to hear this as it is the same story as the 2003 Manitou Sherman Slider I had, and you would figure this sort of thing would get solved with a major re-launch of a re-designed fork. Swing and a miss Manitou!
Good review BTW!
I liked the comments about the crappy SS bolts and using several different sizes of Allen keys to change anything. I am surprised to hear this as it is the same story as the 2003 Manitou Sherman Slider I had, and you would figure this sort of thing would get solved with a major re-launch of a re-designed fork. Swing and a miss Manitou!
Good review BTW!
Posted by Banshee Brown at 12:14 PM on 10-07-2009
$2900.00 should get you a decent - great bike never mind a problematic fork.
That price point is ridiculous, I don't care how much carbon is on it.
$2900.00 should get you a decent - great bike never mind a problematic fork.
That price point is ridiculous, I don't care how much carbon is on it.
Posted by Raiden at 12:21 PM on 10-07-2009
It's rediculous because it's wrong. 3900 is just the price listed in the catalogue so shops can find their keystone cost. No one sold a Canadian Dorado for 3900. They went for closer to a 40. I also find it interesting to deny the work Zac did over the entire race season, considering Trident was the only suspension house supporting the BC Cup. Did he not wrench the US Champs and score Melissa Buhl's National Title? The Entire Bryson Clan? What about JS? Tomac XC team? KHS Team? Tommy T of the Jamis Team? Chris Heath, Team 2 Wheel Freaks (Giant East Coast)? Multiple US and Canadian XC, DH and 4x podium finishes? Unproven? Seems to me that's a lot of traveling and lot of good results. I think NSMB needs to attend the races a little more often if they want to review a race fork. Unproven tech support... bah. Open your eyes. Or go to the races and see who's helping who. Craziness... Don't believe everything you read...
It's rediculous because it's wrong. 3900 is just the price listed in the catalogue so shops can find their keystone cost. No one sold a Canadian Dorado for 3900. They went for closer to a 40. I also find it interesting to deny the work Zac did over the entire race season, considering Trident was the only suspension house supporting the BC Cup. Did he not wrench the US Champs and score Melissa Buhl's National Title? The Entire Bryson Clan? What about JS? Tomac XC team? KHS Team? Tommy T of the Jamis Team? Chris Heath, Team 2 Wheel Freaks (Giant East Coast)? Multiple US and Canadian XC, DH and 4x podium finishes? Unproven? Seems to me that's a lot of traveling and lot of good results. I think NSMB needs to attend the races a little more often if they want to review a race fork. Unproven tech support... bah. Open your eyes. Or go to the races and see who's helping who. Craziness... Don't believe everything you read...
Posted by Tonestar at 12:33 PM on 10-07-2009
MSRP in Canada is based on a different retailer margin than in the US (parts and accessories, not bikes), Canadian MSRP's will always be higher due to this. Realistic street price on a Dorado MRD should be about $3100, the Dorado Aluminum should be at the same price as a Fox 40 and the Boxxer WC.
The Dorado also comes with a free Factory Service Package, 4 Factory Services over a 2 year period. Plus, if Manitou is at a race, they will do services there that don't count towards your 4 Factory Services. This is all outside of the Warranty, which still applies as well.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Chief
(Post 2249081)
can someone explain how the canadian msrp is $1200 more than the us?
that is a little rediculous |
The Dorado also comes with a free Factory Service Package, 4 Factory Services over a 2 year period. Plus, if Manitou is at a race, they will do services there that don't count towards your 4 Factory Services. This is all outside of the Warranty, which still applies as well.
Posted by dodowd at 12:38 PM on 10-07-2009
Great Review!!
Great Review!!
Posted by buddylee at 12:47 PM on 10-07-2009
Great he went to a few races and as far as claiming riders titles gimme a break .....I think what Arthur is trying to say that at the consumer/dealer level Trident is unproven.I also know that last time he got the fork back from Trident there was a glaring issue that he had to fixed on top of a mountain before it could be ridden
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Raiden
(Post 2249099)
It's rediculous because it's wrong. 3900 is just the price listed in the catalogue so shops can find their keystone cost. No one sold a Canadian Dorado for 3900. They went for closer to a 40. I also find it interesting to deny the work Zac did over the entire race season, considering Trident was the only suspension house supporting the BC Cup. Did he not wrench the US Champs and score Melissa Buhl's National Title? The Entire Bryson Clan? What about JS? Tomac XC team? KHS Team? Tommy T of the Jamis Team? Chris Heath, Team 2 Wheel Freaks (Giant East Coast)? Multiple US and Canadian XC, DH and 4x podium finishes? Unproven? Seems to me that's a lot of traveling and lot of good results. I think NSMB needs to attend the races a little more often if they want to review a race fork. Unproven tech support... bah. Open your eyes. Or go to the races and see who's helping who. Craziness... Don't believe everything you read...
|
Posted by Raiden at 12:56 PM on 10-07-2009
Bloody nice pics though- everything looks wicked. Such nice lighting. Good work!
Bloody nice pics though- everything looks wicked. Such nice lighting. Good work!
Posted by The Dan Jones at 01:23 PM on 10-07-2009
Nice review, I will be honest and say I didn't read the whole thing. However I simply skipped to the final thoughts and from this it seems like a majority of people were correct in their suspicions.
As a community we need to say no to these prices, we are the market don't forget that. If some products cost too much we shouldn't buy them, and the do not get produced.
But what do I know, I'm a broke-ass student.
Nice review, I will be honest and say I didn't read the whole thing. However I simply skipped to the final thoughts and from this it seems like a majority of people were correct in their suspicions.
As a community we need to say no to these prices, we are the market don't forget that. If some products cost too much we shouldn't buy them, and the do not get produced.
But what do I know, I'm a broke-ass student.
Posted by ROFL at 02:56 PM on 10-07-2009
Lame review. All I read was some weiner bitching about MSRP (Which no one ever pays), Comparing those new bolts to Stance bolts (WTF?? They are so different. Hey, maybe you still don't like them, but they are NOT stance bolts ya fruitcake and why are you bringing up an 06 OEM fork from the old company that went under wtf) and whining about not having enough time to ride the bloody thing. If you don't race then why are you telling me about how I can't afford a race fork. NSMB- You DO NOT tell me what I can't afford. Hey, I can't even afford a Fox 40 for crying out loud. I can't afford a Ferarri either. But that doesn't mean I don't want to learn about sweet stuff. I'm allowed to like sweet stuff I can't afford. Why don't you spend more valuable writing space describing the feel or something useful? And when was this a Fox 40 review. And to the dipshit who said something to the effect of "We are the customers" BS- You think Ferarri or Lamborghini should stop making cars we can't afford because everything and everybody should be equal wtf. That doesn't even make any sense. No more cool race cars, that stuff is lame. Honda Civics for everyone. I like sweet stuff and I will read what others have to say next rather than only trust the opinion of a non-racer who refuses to run A DIRECT MOUNT STEM on an IS DIRECT MOUNT CROWN WTF IT'S NOT 1998 buddy omg lame lame lame lame lame oh yes lame
Lame review. All I read was some weiner bitching about MSRP (Which no one ever pays), Comparing those new bolts to Stance bolts (WTF?? They are so different. Hey, maybe you still don't like them, but they are NOT stance bolts ya fruitcake and why are you bringing up an 06 OEM fork from the old company that went under wtf) and whining about not having enough time to ride the bloody thing. If you don't race then why are you telling me about how I can't afford a race fork. NSMB- You DO NOT tell me what I can't afford. Hey, I can't even afford a Fox 40 for crying out loud. I can't afford a Ferarri either. But that doesn't mean I don't want to learn about sweet stuff. I'm allowed to like sweet stuff I can't afford. Why don't you spend more valuable writing space describing the feel or something useful? And when was this a Fox 40 review. And to the dipshit who said something to the effect of "We are the customers" BS- You think Ferarri or Lamborghini should stop making cars we can't afford because everything and everybody should be equal wtf. That doesn't even make any sense. No more cool race cars, that stuff is lame. Honda Civics for everyone. I like sweet stuff and I will read what others have to say next rather than only trust the opinion of a non-racer who refuses to run A DIRECT MOUNT STEM on an IS DIRECT MOUNT CROWN WTF IT'S NOT 1998 buddy omg lame lame lame lame lame oh yes lame
Posted by Chief at 03:18 PM on 10-07-2009
so what you are saying is that canadian retailers have the margins to discount the forks from 3900 to 3100 and still have a decent margin?
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Tonestar
(Post 2249109)
MSRP in Canada is based on a different retailer margin than in the US (parts and accessories, not bikes), Canadian MSRP's will always be higher due to this. Realistic street price on a Dorado MRD should be about $3100, the Dorado Aluminum should be at the same price as a Fox 40 and the Boxxer WC.
The Dorado also comes with a free Factory Service Package, 4 Factory Services over a 2 year period. Plus, if Manitou is at a race, they will do services there that don't count towards your 4 Factory Services. This is all outside of the Warranty, which still applies as well. |
Posted by sheffy at 03:43 PM on 10-07-2009
Great HONEST review...Manitou must have the worst track record out there for building over priced average product!!
Great HONEST review...Manitou must have the worst track record out there for building over priced average product!!
Posted by Tonestar at 03:53 PM on 10-07-2009
I don't want to get into discussing margins and how retail works, but, you pretty much have it correct. Now, if we were talking about a $50 or $100 item things would be quite different.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Chief
(Post 2249200)
so what you are saying is that canadian retailers have the margins to discount the forks from 3900 to 3100 and still have a decent margin?
|
Posted by Tonestar at 03:59 PM on 10-07-2009
I don't think he said the product was average, I think he said in his cost to performance ratio, he couldn't justify the value for himself.
I did read in his review, "Performance wise the fork does excel. The Dorado performs sometimes better than competitor
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by sheffy
(Post 2249216)
Great HONEST review...Manitou must have the worst track record out there for building over priced average product!!
|
I did read in his review, "Performance wise the fork does excel. The Dorado performs sometimes better than competitor
Posted by craw at 04:00 PM on 10-07-2009
I find it hard to believe that Manitou would bring such a poorly conceived product to market. It seems like other than the addition of carbon and a fancy case they haven't addressed a single long-standing concern nor were they at all concerned about the numerous small details brought up by the reviewer.
It's almost like they were saying 'for this much carbon they should be paying us the $3900!' while they overlooked things like the poor finish on the axle, the different-sized hardware, poor quality control in assembly, short integrated stem compatibility issues and crappy brake hose guide. Part of paying big money for something like this is revelling in the care put into every aspect of its design and manufacture (Hi Knolly!).
But hey, thanks to stuff like this I'm finally cured of my gear-whoredom. The potential heartbreak of the latest and greatest has finally outweighed any pleasure I could get from a new product. Instead of the desired reaction to new expensive products (desire and lust), I now get the exact opposite (total skepticism).
I think this is a classic case where they needed to add to the testing pool before going to production. Racers with team mechanics don't represent the real world. Another season of testing under a more representative consumer sample would have turned up all these issues pretty quick.
That was an awesome review. Loved the side-by-side comparison with the 40. Hopefully this will set a new standard for reviews. If the reviewers are known (and feared!) to be sharp then the manufacturers will step up to make better products.
I find it hard to believe that Manitou would bring such a poorly conceived product to market. It seems like other than the addition of carbon and a fancy case they haven't addressed a single long-standing concern nor were they at all concerned about the numerous small details brought up by the reviewer.
It's almost like they were saying 'for this much carbon they should be paying us the $3900!' while they overlooked things like the poor finish on the axle, the different-sized hardware, poor quality control in assembly, short integrated stem compatibility issues and crappy brake hose guide. Part of paying big money for something like this is revelling in the care put into every aspect of its design and manufacture (Hi Knolly!).
But hey, thanks to stuff like this I'm finally cured of my gear-whoredom. The potential heartbreak of the latest and greatest has finally outweighed any pleasure I could get from a new product. Instead of the desired reaction to new expensive products (desire and lust), I now get the exact opposite (total skepticism).
I think this is a classic case where they needed to add to the testing pool before going to production. Racers with team mechanics don't represent the real world. Another season of testing under a more representative consumer sample would have turned up all these issues pretty quick.
That was an awesome review. Loved the side-by-side comparison with the 40. Hopefully this will set a new standard for reviews. If the reviewers are known (and feared!) to be sharp then the manufacturers will step up to make better products.
Posted by sheffy at 04:19 PM on 10-07-2009
Key word "sometimes"= No Sale!!
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Tonestar
(Post 2249229)
I don't think he said the product was average, I think he said in his cost to performance ratio, he couldn't justify the value for himself.
I did read in his review, "Performance wise the fork does excel. The Dorado performs sometimes better than competitor |
Posted by Wayne P at 04:36 PM on 10-07-2009
Another case of Manitou almost being there, but not quite. No matter how good it could be or how much potential it had, there was always something wrong. It still seems to be true.
I sound like a broken record but I'm going to say it again: reliability takes a back seat to technological features. That's true for much of the mountain bike industry, not just one particular brand. Give me good damping over adjustments that don't really do anything, thanks.
Another case of Manitou almost being there, but not quite. No matter how good it could be or how much potential it had, there was always something wrong. It still seems to be true.
I sound like a broken record but I'm going to say it again: reliability takes a back seat to technological features. That's true for much of the mountain bike industry, not just one particular brand. Give me good damping over adjustments that don't really do anything, thanks.
Posted by roy at 04:54 PM on 10-07-2009
You would think to get people to buy back into the manitou brand they would have made a bigger effort, who cares about such a high end fork really, and when you screw up some of the little things like they did you have to wonder who's calling the shots. If they had just released the aluminium version, and hell even made it $100-200 cheaper in the first year than a fox 40, that review might have read a whole different way and everyone on here would be rejoicing the new wonder fork! but they failed! haha, i'll stick with my $300 RS domain!!!
You would think to get people to buy back into the manitou brand they would have made a bigger effort, who cares about such a high end fork really, and when you screw up some of the little things like they did you have to wonder who's calling the shots. If they had just released the aluminium version, and hell even made it $100-200 cheaper in the first year than a fox 40, that review might have read a whole different way and everyone on here would be rejoicing the new wonder fork! but they failed! haha, i'll stick with my $300 RS domain!!!
Posted by connor at 05:03 PM on 10-07-2009
I love how everybody forgets that pretty much every highend RS fork has been a giant crusty turd for the last 2 years..
Totem pretty much all
Lyrik 2-Step
2010 Boxxer WC
I love how everybody forgets that pretty much every highend RS fork has been a giant crusty turd for the last 2 years..
Totem pretty much all
Lyrik 2-Step
2010 Boxxer WC
Posted by craw at 05:11 PM on 10-07-2009
You name me one Rock Shox owner from the last two years who's forgotten that.
You name me one Rock Shox owner from the last two years who's forgotten that.
Posted by Raiden at 05:16 PM on 10-07-2009
Oh lord RS... The 2010 Boxxer fiasco was truly, truly epic. Maybe brutal is the word. Horrible? Funny? I can't even find the word to describe it. Any help here?
Oh lord RS... The 2010 Boxxer fiasco was truly, truly epic. Maybe brutal is the word. Horrible? Funny? I can't even find the word to describe it. Any help here?
Posted by Wayne P at 05:21 PM on 10-07-2009
That's my point. Rock Shox, Manitou, Marzocchi..... all are/were producing turds. When the top 3 are having that many issues then that's more than an isolated problem. It speaks to problems within the industry as a whole, really.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by connor
(Post 2249281)
I love how everybody forgets that pretty much every highend RS fork has been a giant crusty turd for the last 2 years..
Totem pretty much all Lyrik 2-Step 2010 Boxxer WC |
Posted by roy at 05:22 PM on 10-07-2009
A fair enough... so RS fucked up too... I must have somehow missed all that, I do remember issues with totems but not the boxxers. Maybe we should all just ride budget forks... who needs all that adjustment anyways? just more things to screw up!
A fair enough... so RS fucked up too... I must have somehow missed all that, I do remember issues with totems but not the boxxers. Maybe we should all just ride budget forks... who needs all that adjustment anyways? just more things to screw up!
Posted by DarylMac at 06:01 PM on 10-07-2009
I ride upper end Fox suspension products and don't have any complaints. I get your point though - I don't play with my adjustments all that much, typically I set it and forget it and instead of modifications, tweaks, or changes I just double check to insure that things are how I like them... This could probably be done at the factory - I think Elka is going this way a bit...
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by roy
(Post 2249293)
Maybe we should all just ride budget forks... who needs all that adjustment anyways? just more things to screw up!
|
Posted by Banshee Brown at 06:02 PM on 10-07-2009
So the motto of the story is...buy fox? :grinno:
So the motto of the story is...buy fox? :grinno:
Posted by cam@nsmb.com at 06:04 PM on 10-07-2009
Pardon?
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by ROFL
(Post 2249191)
Lame review. All I read was some weiner bitching about MSRP (Which no one ever pays), Comparing those new bolts to Stance bolts (WTF?? They are so different. Hey, maybe you still don't like them, but they are NOT stance bolts ya fruitcake and why are you bringing up an 06 OEM fork from the old company that went under wtf) and whining about not having enough time to ride the bloody thing. If you don't race then why are you telling me about how I can't afford a race fork. NSMB- You DO NOT tell me what I can't afford. Hey, I can't even afford a Fox 40 for crying out loud. I can't afford a Ferarri either. But that doesn't mean I don't want to learn about sweet stuff. I'm allowed to like sweet stuff I can't afford. Why don't you spend more valuable writing space describing the feel or something useful? And when was this a Fox 40 review. And to the dipshit who said something to the effect of "We are the customers" BS- You think Ferarri or Lamborghini should stop making cars we can't afford because everything and everybody should be equal wtf. That doesn't even make any sense. No more cool race cars, that stuff is lame. Honda Civics for everyone. I like sweet stuff and I will read what others have to say next rather than only trust the opinion of a non-racer who refuses to run A DIRECT MOUNT STEM on an IS DIRECT MOUNT CROWN WTF IT'S NOT 1998 buddy omg lame lame lame lame lame oh yes lame
|
Posted by syngltrkmnd at 06:14 PM on 10-07-2009
Second that, Cam. What in the world?
Anyhow, props to Arthur for a "pull no punches" review: thorough, honest, detailed, rational, and Wilde bike p*rn to boot.
I've been avoided Manitou since the very beginning, and I'll keep doing so.
Second that, Cam. What in the world?
Anyhow, props to Arthur for a "pull no punches" review: thorough, honest, detailed, rational, and Wilde bike p*rn to boot.
I've been avoided Manitou since the very beginning, and I'll keep doing so.
Posted by LeeLau at 06:18 PM on 10-07-2009
awwww did someone buy a dorado at retail? does poor little swiddums want some widdle spokey dokes for his widdle bike?
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by ROFL
(Post 2249191)
Lame review. All I read was some weiner bitching about MSRP (Which no one ever pays), Comparing those new bolts to Stance bolts (WTF?? They are so different. Hey, maybe you still don't like them, but they are NOT stance bolts ya fruitcake and why are you bringing up an 06 OEM fork from the old company that went under wtf) and whining about not having enough time to ride the bloody thing. If you don't race then why are you telling me about how I can't afford a race fork. NSMB- You DO NOT tell me what I can't afford. Hey, I can't even afford a Fox 40 for crying out loud. I can't afford a Ferarri either. But that doesn't mean I don't want to learn about sweet stuff. I'm allowed to like sweet stuff I can't afford. Why don't you spend more valuable writing space describing the feel or something useful? And when was this a Fox 40 review. And to the dipshit who said something to the effect of "We are the customers" BS- You think Ferarri or Lamborghini should stop making cars we can't afford because everything and everybody should be equal wtf. That doesn't even make any sense. No more cool race cars, that stuff is lame. Honda Civics for everyone. I like sweet stuff and I will read what others have to say next rather than only trust the opinion of a non-racer who refuses to run A DIRECT MOUNT STEM on an IS DIRECT MOUNT CROWN WTF IT'S NOT 1998 buddy omg lame lame lame lame lame oh yes lame
|
Posted by nouseforaname at 06:25 PM on 10-07-2009
I thought the review was quite positive, given that Arthur was open about the fact that he was judging a $4000 fork.
Canadian MSRP IS ridiculous, but that's not the point.
I'm looking forward to the Alu version like Arthur says
Making them out of carbon distorts the expectations of the fork.
I thought the review was quite positive, given that Arthur was open about the fact that he was judging a $4000 fork.
Canadian MSRP IS ridiculous, but that's not the point.
I'm looking forward to the Alu version like Arthur says
Quote:
|
the Dorado’s bare chassis and internals deserve to be reworked in a better overall value package. |
Posted by IFO at 06:45 PM on 10-07-2009
wow thats a bit of fresh air, in that review..
dont think i;ve read a more honest and direct review of any MTB product ever..
for what its worth i still think Manitou needs to bring a product line that centers more on what most people can and will buy..
sure that fork is fantastic but at its price point, even if it worked 110% all day every day, it still wouldnt sell well.. cuz its simply beyond what most people can justify spending..
Manitou has always stopped producing 1 product when something new comes out, which i never understand..
how exactly does the Dorado replace the Travis ? surely there was room for both in the lineup...
anyways hopefully the Alloy version of teh Dorado is a homerun cuz that 4K$ priced carbon version is plain nutty...
wow thats a bit of fresh air, in that review..
dont think i;ve read a more honest and direct review of any MTB product ever..
for what its worth i still think Manitou needs to bring a product line that centers more on what most people can and will buy..
sure that fork is fantastic but at its price point, even if it worked 110% all day every day, it still wouldnt sell well.. cuz its simply beyond what most people can justify spending..
Manitou has always stopped producing 1 product when something new comes out, which i never understand..
how exactly does the Dorado replace the Travis ? surely there was room for both in the lineup...
anyways hopefully the Alloy version of teh Dorado is a homerun cuz that 4K$ priced carbon version is plain nutty...
Posted by buddylee at 06:49 PM on 10-07-2009
too funny this fork from the "New" company is riddled with issues from the "old" companies forks.At least with this fork they give you a nice gun case so you have something to ship it back in every other week for repair or "upgrades".It will all come out when people can actually get these forks and start riding them.I am interested to see the new alloy leg version it was tried a couple years ago and when they got it down to an acceptable weight it failed destruction testing miserably. Also Arthur has raced quite a bit and if you want to run a short integrated stem with a short head tube and a lower axle to crown you will run into interference issues.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by ROFL
(Post 2249191)
Lame review. All I read was some weiner bitching about MSRP (Which no one ever pays), Comparing those new bolts to Stance bolts (WTF?? They are so different. Hey, maybe you still don't like them, but they are NOT stance bolts ya fruitcake and why are you bringing up an 06 OEM fork from the old company that went under wtf) and whining about not having enough time to ride the bloody thing. If you don't race then why are you telling me about how I can't afford a race fork. NSMB- You DO NOT tell me what I can't afford. Hey, I can't even afford a Fox 40 for crying out loud. I can't afford a Ferarri either. But that doesn't mean I don't want to learn about sweet stuff. I'm allowed to like sweet stuff I can't afford. Why don't you spend more valuable writing space describing the feel or something useful? And when was this a Fox 40 review. And to the dipshit who said something to the effect of "We are the customers" BS- You think Ferarri or Lamborghini should stop making cars we can't afford because everything and everybody should be equal wtf. That doesn't even make any sense. No more cool race cars, that stuff is lame. Honda Civics for everyone. I like sweet stuff and I will read what others have to say next rather than only trust the opinion of a non-racer who refuses to run A DIRECT MOUNT STEM on an IS DIRECT MOUNT CROWN WTF IT'S NOT 1998 buddy omg lame lame lame lame lame oh yes lame
|
Posted by sheffy at 08:07 PM on 10-07-2009
Ha Ha well said Lee.......ROFL.....Have some balls and put your ID to the post???(save the BS for Pinkbike buddy)
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by LeeLau
(Post 2249338)
awwww did someone buy a dorado at retail? does poor little swiddums want some widdle spokey dokes for his widdle bike?
|
Posted by Unregistered guy at 08:14 PM on 10-07-2009
Firstly, great review and great pictures. I liked the lay out as just reading a big 'ol paragraph full of info can be a bit overwhelming, love the bullet points. What I'd like to do is share my experience with the new Dorado. I have absolutely zero affiliation with Manitou or Trident and the fork I rode I didn't buy, it was off an injured friends bike. Unlucky for him but great for me! I am also the one who installed the fork on his bike, as well as having ridden with him any time he has been on the fork before he got hurt, so I'd be aware of any issues he had before I got to ride it.
- That axle issue would be quite annoying, especially if I was a customer and had bought it. I think I'd be pretty pissed. The Dorado I rode has never had that issue but it looks quite bad that NSMB's test fork did!
- It sounds like you got the wrong pinch bolts as the ones on this Dorado are some sort of nice high quality stainless steel, and while a bit shallow they absolutely do not deform unless they've been over torqued. That is not to say that you over tightened them, but that both mine and other Dorado's I've seen have not had any of those issues.
- The different sizes of allen keys needed is a bit of a hassle but nothing I'd even take into consideration. Different sized bolts/heads for different torque applications maybe?!
- The plastic hose guide is gay, good call.
- The owner of the fork, as well as me, has never had any topout issues. He's a fat mess and runs more pressure than me and has never has a complaint, nor have I been able to feel topout w/ his pressure in it.
Performance wise this thing is amazing. I'm not a tester or writer but wow, it feels more planted than my Fox 40 or Boxxer Team (an '09) ever have.
Firstly, great review and great pictures. I liked the lay out as just reading a big 'ol paragraph full of info can be a bit overwhelming, love the bullet points. What I'd like to do is share my experience with the new Dorado. I have absolutely zero affiliation with Manitou or Trident and the fork I rode I didn't buy, it was off an injured friends bike. Unlucky for him but great for me! I am also the one who installed the fork on his bike, as well as having ridden with him any time he has been on the fork before he got hurt, so I'd be aware of any issues he had before I got to ride it.
- That axle issue would be quite annoying, especially if I was a customer and had bought it. I think I'd be pretty pissed. The Dorado I rode has never had that issue but it looks quite bad that NSMB's test fork did!
- It sounds like you got the wrong pinch bolts as the ones on this Dorado are some sort of nice high quality stainless steel, and while a bit shallow they absolutely do not deform unless they've been over torqued. That is not to say that you over tightened them, but that both mine and other Dorado's I've seen have not had any of those issues.
- The different sizes of allen keys needed is a bit of a hassle but nothing I'd even take into consideration. Different sized bolts/heads for different torque applications maybe?!
- The plastic hose guide is gay, good call.
- The owner of the fork, as well as me, has never had any topout issues. He's a fat mess and runs more pressure than me and has never has a complaint, nor have I been able to feel topout w/ his pressure in it.
Performance wise this thing is amazing. I'm not a tester or writer but wow, it feels more planted than my Fox 40 or Boxxer Team (an '09) ever have.
Posted by Australia at 09:08 PM on 10-07-2009
Come on Cam, you of all people should know not to feed trolls. Same goes for you three below too.
I liked the review, it gave quite a detailled look at the fork; I was thoroughly infotained.
I have never ridden a Dorado, and have not owned a Manitou product in the last 5 years. I am however going to take this opportunity to go into bat for them.
The review is quite clearly announciates that this is a very expensive fork. So expensive in fact, that many people will have trouble justifying the price. HOWEVER, the reviewer also clearly sates that in the case of direct performance comparision the fork is superior to its comptitors in some areas, and at worst, on par with its competitors in all areas of performance.
Many of the complaints relating to the fork (which many forum posters have been quick to reiterate) relate to the challenges of removing and adjusting the forks repetitively. I have no evidence to the following asserton, but I'm prepared to put my name to it: the vast majority of Mountain Bikers will have their local bike shop fit a fork once, and will not remove it until the time comes for it to be ultimately replaced (likely, again in the hands of lbs mechanics). It is subjective, but if I were to derive a conclusion from the apparent facts, I would focus slightly more on performance, and less on dificulties associated with fitting and set up. Most riders (again no stats, just an opinion derived from experiance and the posters on nsmb) dont even touch their travel adjust when they go up hill - let alone make frequent adjustments to compression dampening and risk squirting oil on their discs.
It appears that Manitou has made a very specific product for a very specific group of people: i.e. their racers and product testers more as a proof of concept rather than as a product to increase unit sales, margins, or total revenue.
Though many nay-sayers are quick to judge based on one fork (even just one all-be-it quality review); I am not going to be so quick to count Manitou out... lets give them 12 months - my gut feeling is that some of the vultures will be eating their words
:aussie: out.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by cam@nsmb.com
(Post 2249328)
Pardon?
|
I liked the review, it gave quite a detailled look at the fork; I was thoroughly infotained.
I have never ridden a Dorado, and have not owned a Manitou product in the last 5 years. I am however going to take this opportunity to go into bat for them.
The review is quite clearly announciates that this is a very expensive fork. So expensive in fact, that many people will have trouble justifying the price. HOWEVER, the reviewer also clearly sates that in the case of direct performance comparision the fork is superior to its comptitors in some areas, and at worst, on par with its competitors in all areas of performance.
Many of the complaints relating to the fork (which many forum posters have been quick to reiterate) relate to the challenges of removing and adjusting the forks repetitively. I have no evidence to the following asserton, but I'm prepared to put my name to it: the vast majority of Mountain Bikers will have their local bike shop fit a fork once, and will not remove it until the time comes for it to be ultimately replaced (likely, again in the hands of lbs mechanics). It is subjective, but if I were to derive a conclusion from the apparent facts, I would focus slightly more on performance, and less on dificulties associated with fitting and set up. Most riders (again no stats, just an opinion derived from experiance and the posters on nsmb) dont even touch their travel adjust when they go up hill - let alone make frequent adjustments to compression dampening and risk squirting oil on their discs.
It appears that Manitou has made a very specific product for a very specific group of people: i.e. their racers and product testers more as a proof of concept rather than as a product to increase unit sales, margins, or total revenue.
Though many nay-sayers are quick to judge based on one fork (even just one all-be-it quality review); I am not going to be so quick to count Manitou out... lets give them 12 months - my gut feeling is that some of the vultures will be eating their words
:aussie: out.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by syngltrkmnd
(Post 2249335)
Second that, Cam. What in the world?
Anyhow, props to Arthur for a "pull no punches" review: thorough, honest, detailed, rational, and Wilde bike p*rn to boot. I've been avoided Manitou since the very beginning, and I'll keep doing so. |
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by LeeLau
(Post 2249338)
awwww did someone buy a dorado at retail? does poor little swiddums want some widdle spokey dokes for his widdle bike?
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by buddylee
(Post 2249354)
too funny this fork from the "New" company is riddled with issues from the "old" companies forks.At least with this fork they give you a nice gun case so you have something to ship it back in every other week for repair or "upgrades".It will all come out when people can actually get these forks and start riding them.I am interested to see the new alloy leg version it was tried a couple years ago and when they got it down to an acceptable weight it failed destruction testing miserably. Also Arthur has raced quite a bit and if you want to run a short integrated stem with a short head tube and a lower axle to crown you will run into interference issues.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by sheffy
(Post 2249402)
Ha Ha well said Lee.......ROFL.....Have some balls and put your ID to the post???(save the BS for Pinkbike buddy)
|
Posted by walleater at 09:29 PM on 10-07-2009
The complaint (one of many...) was about removing the wheel, not the fork. In the days of the Maxle and the like, needing three different sized allen keys to remove a wheel is retarded, and shows lack of thought on Manitou's behalf IMHO. Sure, these things don't matter when you ride down a trail (until you get a flat on a freezing cold day...), but stuff like this is basic design and should be sorted as a matter of course.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Australia
(Post 2249440)
Come on Cam, you of all people should know not to feed trolls. Same goes for you three below too.
I liked the review, it gave quite a detailled look at the fork; I was thoroughly infotained. I have never ridden a Dorado, and have not owned a Manitou product in the last 5 years. I am however going to take this opportunity to go into bat for them. The review is quite clearly announciates that this is a very expensive fork. So expensive in fact, that many people will have trouble justifying the price. HOWEVER, the reviewer also clearly sates that in the case of direct performance comparision the fork is superior to its comptitors in some areas, and at worst, on par with its competitors in all areas of performance. Many of the complaints relating to the fork (which many forum posters have been quick to reiterate) relate to the challenges of removing and adjusting the forks repetitively. I have no evidence to the following asserton, but I'm prepared to put my name to it: the vast majority of Mountain Bikers will have their local bike shop fit a fork once, and will not remove it until the time comes for it to be ultimately replaced (likely, again in the hands of lbs mechanics). It is subjective, but if I were to derive a conclusion from the apparent facts, I would focus slightly more on performance, and less on dificulties associated with fitting and set up. Most riders (again no stats, just an opinion derived from experiance and the posters on nsmb) dont even touch their travel adjust when they go up hill - let alone make frequent adjustments to compression dampening and risk squirting oil on their discs. It appears that Manitou has made a very specific product for a very specific group of people: i.e. their racers and product testers more as a proof of concept rather than as a product to increase unit sales, margins, or total revenue. Though many nay-sayers are quick to judge based on one fork (even just one all-be-it quality review); I am not going to be so quick to count Manitou out... lets give them 12 months - my gut feeling is that some of the vultures will be eating their words :aussie: out. |
Posted by Australia at 09:56 PM on 10-07-2009
OHHHHHH, you need that to remove the wheel!
erm, that changes things I guess.
Am still confused as to why in the 21st Century people don't use QR... I recently bought my first proper DH bike - it doesnt have QR... I didn't think about how I was going to change the tire if the need arose.
Not that it matters - I broke 3 ribs and the bike is for sale :)
P.S. what on earth is a MAXLE, lets have that in XC terms please! :p
OHHHHHH, you need that to remove the wheel!
erm, that changes things I guess.
Am still confused as to why in the 21st Century people don't use QR... I recently bought my first proper DH bike - it doesnt have QR... I didn't think about how I was going to change the tire if the need arose.
Not that it matters - I broke 3 ribs and the bike is for sale :)
P.S. what on earth is a MAXLE, lets have that in XC terms please! :p
Posted by roy at 10:30 PM on 10-07-2009
Dude... where have you been, maxle = 20mm quick release for big forks, awesome system.
Dude... where have you been, maxle = 20mm quick release for big forks, awesome system.
Posted by NSTP at 12:02 AM on 10-08-2009
I would say that for a fork that has such a high price (MSRP or not, it will still be a higher price that anything out there) That there just isn't the value. People buy Boxxer Team forks because of their value.
People should make note, like some others have said, that the fork in some areas outperformed the other forks that the reviewer has ridden, and in other areas was on par. From what I read the only place the Dorado outperformed the Fox 40 was in the chassis forgiveness. Unless it wasn't I didn't pick-up on the details on the other ways it outperformed. Although that is a detail that you would like to see at such a price it is a detail that could be found in other forks smaller than the Fox 40, ie. 2010 Boxxer. Secondly is that detail something that is worth that much more than many other forks?
The fact the the issues that happened with Arthur's test fork is still a fact. It might suck that it happened to him, and not to some others but it does speak for reliability. Sometimes the issues happen to some guy that has no special relation, and sometimes is happens to someone giving a review on the net, it has to be said though.
And whether the local distibutor's tech works hard to keep some racer's products up and running by traveling to races, there needs to be the service to back up joe blow. So if someone goes to races, and someone else is there to work for joe blow, that might account for improved service. This is just a view from what was said in the article and the other people's mentions on here. Including that one idiot.
I hope that Manitou nails it on their next try. And that the same performance if felt in the Alu. version, at a much more resonable price.
I would like to see a review on the Bos RaRe fork, or a comparison to the Dorado.
I would say that for a fork that has such a high price (MSRP or not, it will still be a higher price that anything out there) That there just isn't the value. People buy Boxxer Team forks because of their value.
People should make note, like some others have said, that the fork in some areas outperformed the other forks that the reviewer has ridden, and in other areas was on par. From what I read the only place the Dorado outperformed the Fox 40 was in the chassis forgiveness. Unless it wasn't I didn't pick-up on the details on the other ways it outperformed. Although that is a detail that you would like to see at such a price it is a detail that could be found in other forks smaller than the Fox 40, ie. 2010 Boxxer. Secondly is that detail something that is worth that much more than many other forks?
The fact the the issues that happened with Arthur's test fork is still a fact. It might suck that it happened to him, and not to some others but it does speak for reliability. Sometimes the issues happen to some guy that has no special relation, and sometimes is happens to someone giving a review on the net, it has to be said though.
And whether the local distibutor's tech works hard to keep some racer's products up and running by traveling to races, there needs to be the service to back up joe blow. So if someone goes to races, and someone else is there to work for joe blow, that might account for improved service. This is just a view from what was said in the article and the other people's mentions on here. Including that one idiot.
I hope that Manitou nails it on their next try. And that the same performance if felt in the Alu. version, at a much more resonable price.
I would like to see a review on the Bos RaRe fork, or a comparison to the Dorado.
Posted by Sethimus at 08:03 AM on 10-08-2009
are you from the past?
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Australia
(Post 2249475)
OHHHHHH, you need that to remove the wheel!
erm, that changes things I guess. Am still confused as to why in the 21st Century people don't use QR... I recently bought my first proper DH bike - it doesnt have QR... I didn't think about how I was going to change the tire if the need arose. Not that it matters - I broke 3 ribs and the bike is for sale :) P.S. what on earth is a MAXLE, lets have that in XC terms please! :p |
Posted by walleater at 09:02 AM on 10-08-2009
If anything positive comes out of this thread for Manitou, then hopefully it will be addressing this point.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by NSTP
(Post 2249574)
And whether the local distibutor's tech works hard to keep some racer's products up and running by traveling to races, there needs to be the service to back up joe blow. So if someone goes to races and someone else is there to work for joe blow, that might account for improved service. This is just a view from what was said in the article and the other people's mentions on here. Including that one idiot.
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Posted by Wayne P at 10:00 AM on 10-08-2009
Somebody else made a good point about Manitou coming out with a good platform then just ditching it altogether.
The Travis was a decent platform was it not? It was just the internals that were shite yes? Then why not improve on what you have?
Then we have the Sherman line. Manitou was the first one promoting a big travel single crown fork and now where are these forks in their line up? Why invest all that money into something that you're just going to ditch a few years later. Wouldn't it made the most sense to invest in better internals???
Somebody else made a good point about Manitou coming out with a good platform then just ditching it altogether.
The Travis was a decent platform was it not? It was just the internals that were shite yes? Then why not improve on what you have?
Then we have the Sherman line. Manitou was the first one promoting a big travel single crown fork and now where are these forks in their line up? Why invest all that money into something that you're just going to ditch a few years later. Wouldn't it made the most sense to invest in better internals???
Posted by Banshee Brown at 10:21 AM on 10-08-2009
I agree with you Wayne. I don't like how the cost is passed along to us, the riders when companies are ditching products instead of improving on the problems associated with them.
I guess what it comes down to for me, is if I'm going to be treated like a guinea pig testing products that are not well thought out then I want guinea pig prices. Not top shelf prices for "experiments."
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Wayne P
(Post 2249675)
Somebody else made a good point about Manitou coming out with a good platform then just ditching it altogether.
The Travis was a decent platform was it not? It was just the internals that were shite yes? Then why not improve on what you have? Then we have the Sherman line. Manitou was the first one promoting a big travel single crown fork and now where are these forks in their line up? Why invest all that money into something that you're just going to ditch a few years later. Wouldn't it made the most sense to invest in better internals??? |
I guess what it comes down to for me, is if I'm going to be treated like a guinea pig testing products that are not well thought out then I want guinea pig prices. Not top shelf prices for "experiments."
Posted by King of Fasia at 10:45 AM on 10-08-2009
No he's 18 and riding shit from 2005.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Sethimus
(Post 2249622)
are you from the past?
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Posted by Rigaud at 12:34 PM on 10-08-2009
Cambriabike.com is listing the two forks already.
Carbon = $2399.95 USD
Alloy = $1749.95 USD
http://www.cambriabike.com/shopdispl...ain+Bike+Forks
Cambriabike.com is listing the two forks already.
Carbon = $2399.95 USD
Alloy = $1749.95 USD
http://www.cambriabike.com/shopdispl...ain+Bike+Forks
Posted by Sharon at 12:36 PM on 10-08-2009
Awesome review Arthur!
For the record, I've had good service from Trident on my Manitou Minute fork and swinger shock.
Awesome review Arthur!
For the record, I've had good service from Trident on my Manitou Minute fork and swinger shock.
Posted by substandard man at 03:00 PM on 10-08-2009
Just a little tid-bit from my substandard mind...because it seems some of you missed the boat on this one...I don't even ride DH, but I would have liked to see a little more about how the fork rode and performed; compared to 1 or 2 sentences on that and then paragraphs filled with complaints about bolt heads, cable guides, etc. Although details like that are very important, performance should be equal, if not more important. Since so little of the article was spent on commending the performance that was deemed better or at least on par with the competition...and this comment coming with Manitou's first "great" fork since it has been under new ownership...i can only believe that the author has been burned by manitou that he doesn't want to talk about the things that were good about this fork...only the things that he wanted changed since he owned a sherman years ago. I don't really like manitou that much either, but with them being owned by hayes now, i'd like to know how THEIR products perform. As paragraphs were used to explain the complaints, so I shall explain them in the same fashion.
-Bolt heads...engineering says you need different sizes for different applications and torques (i'll assume that the torque specs are different when a different head is used). Sometimes it isn't possible to optimize a design and torque values and have all the same bolts....for an example see car engines. When wrenching on a car, it would be nice to use the same wrench to take off wheels, change oil filters, change spark plugs....but sometimes it just isn't possible (I'm sure car race mechanics would love that though). Also, how many other forks have pinch bolts and thru-axles (that aren't RS's patented maxle) that have 4mm heads on both?
-cable guide...maybe it does suck...i dunno; but i'm glad that they spent time engineering performance and not cable guides...god only know what MSRP would be then.
Those were the two main points I got out of the review, beside the numerous mentions of price. Price, btw, should definitely be noted, but not always a basis or even main point of an 'unbiased' review of a product. Maybe this should be a cost analysis instead of review...idk.
Good engineering does not mean that everything will be perfect the first time around. Upgrades and running changes (always happen in every good company) AND are NOT synonymous (nor does it equal) RECALL. To throw out the word 'recall' would imply something vastly different than a company has a better method, or better performance for something else. When car batteries explode or start fires....that is a recall; conversely, when next model year's car gets better gas mileage because they tweaked some parts....that is an upgrade. See the dif....one implies something is a safety concern or does not work, one implies something works better.
I firmly believe that a product review should be thorough it it's performance with cost and complaints noted. I am interested in what the product can do (not just all the things you would change if you and your bros made each individual bicycle component out of your garage). I guess I'm just confused why so many people that posted here are "smarter for having read that" when it was more of a preview of a product that a review. When something costs that much, please have a little more to say about the performance when you said things like it, "it performs better or on par with competitors". Answer questions like, "how?" and "in what ways"....for better or worse, those questions are answered in reviews. I would NOT think a good review of an Aston Martin or Lambourghini (sp?) to pick apart interior colors, or door handle designs.
Just a little tid-bit from my substandard mind...because it seems some of you missed the boat on this one...I don't even ride DH, but I would have liked to see a little more about how the fork rode and performed; compared to 1 or 2 sentences on that and then paragraphs filled with complaints about bolt heads, cable guides, etc. Although details like that are very important, performance should be equal, if not more important. Since so little of the article was spent on commending the performance that was deemed better or at least on par with the competition...and this comment coming with Manitou's first "great" fork since it has been under new ownership...i can only believe that the author has been burned by manitou that he doesn't want to talk about the things that were good about this fork...only the things that he wanted changed since he owned a sherman years ago. I don't really like manitou that much either, but with them being owned by hayes now, i'd like to know how THEIR products perform. As paragraphs were used to explain the complaints, so I shall explain them in the same fashion.
-Bolt heads...engineering says you need different sizes for different applications and torques (i'll assume that the torque specs are different when a different head is used). Sometimes it isn't possible to optimize a design and torque values and have all the same bolts....for an example see car engines. When wrenching on a car, it would be nice to use the same wrench to take off wheels, change oil filters, change spark plugs....but sometimes it just isn't possible (I'm sure car race mechanics would love that though). Also, how many other forks have pinch bolts and thru-axles (that aren't RS's patented maxle) that have 4mm heads on both?
-cable guide...maybe it does suck...i dunno; but i'm glad that they spent time engineering performance and not cable guides...god only know what MSRP would be then.
Those were the two main points I got out of the review, beside the numerous mentions of price. Price, btw, should definitely be noted, but not always a basis or even main point of an 'unbiased' review of a product. Maybe this should be a cost analysis instead of review...idk.
Good engineering does not mean that everything will be perfect the first time around. Upgrades and running changes (always happen in every good company) AND are NOT synonymous (nor does it equal) RECALL. To throw out the word 'recall' would imply something vastly different than a company has a better method, or better performance for something else. When car batteries explode or start fires....that is a recall; conversely, when next model year's car gets better gas mileage because they tweaked some parts....that is an upgrade. See the dif....one implies something is a safety concern or does not work, one implies something works better.
I firmly believe that a product review should be thorough it it's performance with cost and complaints noted. I am interested in what the product can do (not just all the things you would change if you and your bros made each individual bicycle component out of your garage). I guess I'm just confused why so many people that posted here are "smarter for having read that" when it was more of a preview of a product that a review. When something costs that much, please have a little more to say about the performance when you said things like it, "it performs better or on par with competitors". Answer questions like, "how?" and "in what ways"....for better or worse, those questions are answered in reviews. I would NOT think a good review of an Aston Martin or Lambourghini (sp?) to pick apart interior colors, or door handle designs.
Posted by clarklewis at 03:48 PM on 10-08-2009
what's with all the trolls around here?
its nice to read honest reviews, free of flowery hyperbole and inuendo.
what's with all the trolls around here?
its nice to read honest reviews, free of flowery hyperbole and inuendo.
Posted by Sideshow at 03:57 PM on 10-08-2009
the new 888 will put Marz back on top.
Using the Fox40 as a reference makes me giggle considering the usually last a week between rebuilds.
It comes down to what Wayne said. Its about a general issue in the industry. Not so much the companies, but the companies trying to satisfy unreasonable consumers.
We all want light cheap DH forks and to me that is a scary concept that has me wearing a mouthguard and a Leatt.
If the new 888 weighs in at 6.5lbs and hold up like they did for the 10yrs prior to 2008 we will all be stoked.
They made a risky move changing over production and have had some pretty serious bumps in the road. As riders that appreciate what they did for the sport in the past, we hope they pull out of the tailspin.
I have been on the 2010 888, for about 2 months. Works like the day i got it. No leaks, no bushing issues, and the genuine feel of an oil bath.
Keep your fingers crossed kids.
the new 888 will put Marz back on top.
Using the Fox40 as a reference makes me giggle considering the usually last a week between rebuilds.
It comes down to what Wayne said. Its about a general issue in the industry. Not so much the companies, but the companies trying to satisfy unreasonable consumers.
We all want light cheap DH forks and to me that is a scary concept that has me wearing a mouthguard and a Leatt.
If the new 888 weighs in at 6.5lbs and hold up like they did for the 10yrs prior to 2008 we will all be stoked.
They made a risky move changing over production and have had some pretty serious bumps in the road. As riders that appreciate what they did for the sport in the past, we hope they pull out of the tailspin.
I have been on the 2010 888, for about 2 months. Works like the day i got it. No leaks, no bushing issues, and the genuine feel of an oil bath.
Keep your fingers crossed kids.
Posted by Wayne P at 04:12 PM on 10-08-2009
I have admit I am intrigued by the EVO ti. I'd love the opportunity to try one out.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by SIDESHOW
(Post 2249965)
the new 888 will put Marz back on top.
|
Posted by connor at 04:18 PM on 10-08-2009
like weeping oil out of the lower castings like the first 888? Yeah I'd be stoked...
Quote:
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Originally Posted by SIDESHOW
(Post 2249965)
If the new 888 weighs in at 6.5lbs and hold up like they did for the 10yrs prior to 2008 we will all be stoked.
|
Posted by Furious at 09:52 PM on 10-08-2009
So is this what happens when the marketing department calls the shots? Faster, lighter, more carbon, bah who needs to give the guys in engineering or production time to work out the kinks?
Wouldn't we be better off with a longer product cycle so companies have time to fix and refine a product?
Or am I crazy for settling with proven 2 year old technology instead of getting in the queue for the Next Big Thing
So is this what happens when the marketing department calls the shots? Faster, lighter, more carbon, bah who needs to give the guys in engineering or production time to work out the kinks?
Wouldn't we be better off with a longer product cycle so companies have time to fix and refine a product?
Or am I crazy for settling with proven 2 year old technology instead of getting in the queue for the Next Big Thing
Posted by craw at 10:03 PM on 10-08-2009
Totally agreed. They set out to get us excited by some overpriced high-zoot thing but now everyone is so afraid of getting stuck with some untested flashy POS that nobody trusts anything new anymore. And then they keep redesigning everything every year instead of refining the stuff that already works so that they never capture the growing 'I'll let it run for a season or two then I'll buy' market segment.
No wonder Fox is doing so well. And so they should. Their plan makes sense to everybody.
Totally agreed. They set out to get us excited by some overpriced high-zoot thing but now everyone is so afraid of getting stuck with some untested flashy POS that nobody trusts anything new anymore. And then they keep redesigning everything every year instead of refining the stuff that already works so that they never capture the growing 'I'll let it run for a season or two then I'll buy' market segment.
No wonder Fox is doing so well. And so they should. Their plan makes sense to everybody.
Posted by cam@nsmb.com at 10:24 PM on 10-08-2009
That was clearer the second time through. Nicely edited.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by substandard man
(Post 2249948)
Just a little tid-bit from my substandard mind...because it seems some of you missed the boat on this one...I don't even ride DH, but I would have liked to see a little more about how the fork rode and performed; compared to 1 or 2 sentences on that and then paragraphs filled with complaints about bolt heads, cable guides, etc. Although details like that are very important, performance should be equal, if not more important. Since so little of the article was spent on commending the performance that was deemed better or at least on par with the competition...and this comment coming with Manitou's first "great" fork since it has been under new ownership...i can only believe that the author has been burned by manitou that he doesn't want to talk about the things that were good about this fork...only the things that he wanted changed since he owned a sherman years ago. I don't really like manitou that much either, but with them being owned by hayes now, i'd like to know how THEIR products perform. As paragraphs were used to explain the complaints, so I shall explain them in the same fashion.
-Bolt heads...engineering says you need different sizes for different applications and torques (i'll assume that the torque specs are different when a different head is used). Sometimes it isn't possible to optimize a design and torque values and have all the same bolts....for an example see car engines. When wrenching on a car, it would be nice to use the same wrench to take off wheels, change oil filters, change spark plugs....but sometimes it just isn't possible (I'm sure car race mechanics would love that though). Also, how many other forks have pinch bolts and thru-axles (that aren't RS's patented maxle) that have 4mm heads on both? -cable guide...maybe it does suck...i dunno; but i'm glad that they spent time engineering performance and not cable guides...god only know what MSRP would be then. Those were the two main points I got out of the review, beside the numerous mentions of price. Price, btw, should definitely be noted, but not always a basis or even main point of an 'unbiased' review of a product. Maybe this should be a cost analysis instead of review...idk. Good engineering does not mean that everything will be perfect the first time around. Upgrades and running changes (always happen in every good company) AND are NOT synonymous (nor does it equal) RECALL. To throw out the word 'recall' would imply something vastly different than a company has a better method, or better performance for something else. When car batteries explode or start fires....that is a recall; conversely, when next model year's car gets better gas mileage because they tweaked some parts....that is an upgrade. See the dif....one implies something is a safety concern or does not work, one implies something works better. I firmly believe that a product review should be thorough it it's performance with cost and complaints noted. I am interested in what the product can do (not just all the things you would change if you and your bros made each individual bicycle component out of your garage). I guess I'm just confused why so many people that posted here are "smarter for having read that" when it was more of a preview of a product that a review. When something costs that much, please have a little more to say about the performance when you said things like it, "it performs better or on par with competitors". Answer questions like, "how?" and "in what ways"....for better or worse, those questions are answered in reviews. I would NOT think a good review of an Aston Martin or Lambourghini (sp?) to pick apart interior colors, or door handle designs. |
Posted by Dizzler at 12:52 AM on 10-09-2009
sweet fox 40 review.
DUDES!
its the in augural run of a limited production fork. LIMITED.
Of course there will be some dropping of the ball. It is to be expected.
'09 problems have been remedied.
2 servicings?
warrenty servicings?
LIMITED RUN?
DEAL WITH IT!
be happy you got to know your local neighbourhood manitou guy.
sweet fox 40 review.
DUDES!
its the in augural run of a limited production fork. LIMITED.
Of course there will be some dropping of the ball. It is to be expected.
'09 problems have been remedied.
2 servicings?
warrenty servicings?
LIMITED RUN?
DEAL WITH IT!
be happy you got to know your local neighbourhood manitou guy.
Posted by scriz at 01:05 AM on 10-09-2009
Huh? I guess I am one of the few that also found this review completely amateur.
Complaining about soft bolt heads means you either have crappy wrenches or you are applying too much torque. I had a TPC+ sherman for 3 years and never had a problem with the bolts. Smaller bolts reduces the weight and the risk of heavy handed amateur mechanics cranking down too hard. I'm sure Manitou chose the dual 4mm pinch bolts for specific engineering reasons, maybe you should ask them why instead of just assuming that all the bolts should be the same size because Fox does it that way?
Manitou's pinch bolt system is actually pretty sweet in that there is no risk of stripping the threads because of the steel inserts. It is designed to last a long time. The same cannot be said for any system that threads straight into magnesium lowers.
Wait a sec... you *sanded* a key aluminum part to get it to fit? Did you contact Manitou about that? At least give them a chance to explain. I would never even ride a fork where I had to sand down metal to install it. How can you complain about tolerances when you are freaking sanding down parts? Do you work on your bike with a hammer too?
For a more *performance* oriented review, check this one:
http://www.pinkbike.com/news/Manitou...view-2009.html
lots more detail, and more professionally written. If you are going to flog a product and insinuate things like a recall, at least give the manufacturer a chance to respond.
Huh? I guess I am one of the few that also found this review completely amateur.
Complaining about soft bolt heads means you either have crappy wrenches or you are applying too much torque. I had a TPC+ sherman for 3 years and never had a problem with the bolts. Smaller bolts reduces the weight and the risk of heavy handed amateur mechanics cranking down too hard. I'm sure Manitou chose the dual 4mm pinch bolts for specific engineering reasons, maybe you should ask them why instead of just assuming that all the bolts should be the same size because Fox does it that way?
Manitou's pinch bolt system is actually pretty sweet in that there is no risk of stripping the threads because of the steel inserts. It is designed to last a long time. The same cannot be said for any system that threads straight into magnesium lowers.
Wait a sec... you *sanded* a key aluminum part to get it to fit? Did you contact Manitou about that? At least give them a chance to explain. I would never even ride a fork where I had to sand down metal to install it. How can you complain about tolerances when you are freaking sanding down parts? Do you work on your bike with a hammer too?
For a more *performance* oriented review, check this one:
http://www.pinkbike.com/news/Manitou...view-2009.html
lots more detail, and more professionally written. If you are going to flog a product and insinuate things like a recall, at least give the manufacturer a chance to respond.
Posted by electronic at 02:12 AM on 10-09-2009
Several people including myself on our team and close riding crew have had multiple issues with Manitou products and have never had any satisfaction from Trident. All of us pay for our repairs including shipping to be done elsewhere instead of having the warranty work done for free at Trident.
ps: Everyone on the circuit knows that the Dorado is no better then a bad piece of wood. Just ask Mr.Lehikoinen, he voiced his opinions publicly all season long.
Don't believe everything you read lol! Exactly, send your product to Trident and play ping pong shipping all season long and find out yourself.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Raiden
(Post 2249099)
It's rediculous because it's wrong. 3900 is just the price listed in the catalogue so shops can find their keystone cost. No one sold a Canadian Dorado for 3900. They went for closer to a 40. I also find it interesting to deny the work Zac did over the entire race season, considering Trident was the only suspension house supporting the BC Cup. Did he not wrench the US Champs and score Melissa Buhl's National Title? The Entire Bryson Clan? What about JS? Tomac XC team? KHS Team? Tommy T of the Jamis Team? Chris Heath, Team 2 Wheel Freaks (Giant East Coast)? Multiple US and Canadian XC, DH and 4x podium finishes? Unproven? Seems to me that's a lot of traveling and lot of good results. I think NSMB needs to attend the races a little more often if they want to review a race fork. Unproven tech support... bah. Open your eyes. Or go to the races and see who's helping who. Craziness... Don't believe everything you read...
|
ps: Everyone on the circuit knows that the Dorado is no better then a bad piece of wood. Just ask Mr.Lehikoinen, he voiced his opinions publicly all season long.
Don't believe everything you read lol! Exactly, send your product to Trident and play ping pong shipping all season long and find out yourself.
Posted by craw at 02:28 AM on 10-09-2009
Actually, at this point I'd say that doing something 'because Fox does it that way' is a perfectly good reason. The Fox way of thinking creates good product. Clearly the Manitou way doesn't. It's too bad because clearly people want to like their forks.
Actually, at this point I'd say that doing something 'because Fox does it that way' is a perfectly good reason. The Fox way of thinking creates good product. Clearly the Manitou way doesn't. It's too bad because clearly people want to like their forks.
Posted by Wayne P at 07:40 AM on 10-09-2009
This is not exactly uncommon practice and does not affect performance. It just eases usability. Moto riders, including myself have been doing this for many years without any ill affect.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by scriz
(Post 2250248)
Wait a sec... you *sanded* a key aluminum part to get it to fit? Did you contact Manitou about that? At least give them a chance to explain. I would never even ride a fork where I had to sand down metal to install it. How can you complain about tolerances when you are freaking sanding down parts? Do you work on your bike with a hammer too?
|
Posted by skimtb1 at 08:19 AM on 10-09-2009
hahaha at the manitou keyboard warriors
hahaha at the manitou keyboard warriors
Posted by roy at 09:19 AM on 10-09-2009
Give them a chance to explain that on a top of the line $3k fork they made a part that doesn't fit any standard hub without sanding, i'm sure they would have replaced it under warranty but that would mean more time without the fork.
I may give you the benefit of the doubt about the pinch bolts for the axle, I had a manitou minute with the same (or similar) system and sure it held the wheel securely and because this is intended as a race fork its maybe not such an issue that it needs multiple tools to remove the wheel but for any consumer level fork when everyone else has some form of quick release, I'd say manitou really should follow suit.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by scriz
(Post 2250248)
Wait a sec... you *sanded* a key aluminum part to get it to fit? Did you contact Manitou about that? At least give them a chance to explain. I would never even ride a fork where I had to sand down metal to install it. How can you complain about tolerances when you are freaking sanding down parts? Do you work on your bike with a hammer too?
|
I may give you the benefit of the doubt about the pinch bolts for the axle, I had a manitou minute with the same (or similar) system and sure it held the wheel securely and because this is intended as a race fork its maybe not such an issue that it needs multiple tools to remove the wheel but for any consumer level fork when everyone else has some form of quick release, I'd say manitou really should follow suit.
Posted by walleater at 09:28 AM on 10-09-2009
Eh?
As sound as the like of Naz at Marzocchi is, surely the best situation to be in is when you hardly ever have to meet your local suspension guy!
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Dizzler
(Post 2250243)
sweet fox 40 review.
DUDES! its the in augural run of a limited production fork. LIMITED. Of course there will be some dropping of the ball. It is to be expected. '09 problems have been remedied. 2 servicings? warrenty servicings? LIMITED RUN? DEAL WITH IT! be happy you got to know your local neighbourhood manitou guy. |
As sound as the like of Naz at Marzocchi is, surely the best situation to be in is when you hardly ever have to meet your local suspension guy!
Posted by DrewM at 09:29 AM on 10-09-2009
Great review Arthur.
I think you could have been a lot less polite and balanced and still presented a honest assessment.
I do not usually consider myself a conspiracy theorist but I do find myself wondering how many of the new one-post-wonders work for Manitou?
For example: Third-Person-Zac from Trident:
http://bb.nsmb.com/member.php?u=37106
Defending a long time, well recognized Manitou issue (soft, crappy hardware)is hardly the way to rebut a review of their latest offering.
Pseudo-engineering banter aside I wish every bolt on my bike had a 4mm OR 5mm head. I could ditch my multi tool and carry one allen wrench. Beautiful. Any company that helps me get there gets my vote.
If 4mm is better then make all the bolts 4mm... just pick one.
Pinkbike-Mike's review was well written but "performance" seems to take a backseat to how pretty the carbon looks and the excitement of the fork sporting an MRD sticker.
Maybe you meant: "For a more *favourable* review" ???
-D
Great review Arthur.
I think you could have been a lot less polite and balanced and still presented a honest assessment.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by skimtb1
(Post 2250327)
hahaha at the manitou keyboard warriors
|
For example: Third-Person-Zac from Trident:
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Raiden
(Post 2249099)
It's rediculous because it's wrong. 3900 is just the price listed in the catalogue so shops can find their keystone cost. No one sold a Canadian Dorado for 3900. They went for closer to a 40. I also find it interesting to deny the work Zac did over the entire race season, considering Trident was the only suspension house supporting the BC Cup. Did he not wrench the US Champs and score Melissa Buhl's National Title? The Entire Bryson Clan? What about JS? Tomac XC team? KHS Team? Tommy T of the Jamis Team? Chris Heath, Team 2 Wheel Freaks (Giant East Coast)? Multiple US and Canadian XC, DH and 4x podium finishes? Unproven? Seems to me that's a lot of traveling and lot of good results. I think NSMB needs to attend the races a little more often if they want to review a race fork. Unproven tech support... bah. Open your eyes. Or go to the races and see who's helping who. Craziness... Don't believe everything you read...
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by scriz
(Post 2250248)
Huh? I guess I am one of the few that also found this review completely amateur.
Complaining about soft bolt heads means you either have crappy wrenches or you are applying too much torque. |
Pseudo-engineering banter aside I wish every bolt on my bike had a 4mm OR 5mm head. I could ditch my multi tool and carry one allen wrench. Beautiful. Any company that helps me get there gets my vote.
If 4mm is better then make all the bolts 4mm... just pick one.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by scriz
(Post 2250248)
For a more *performance* oriented review, check this one:
http://www.pinkbike.com/news/Manitou...view-2009.html |
Maybe you meant: "For a more *favourable* review" ???
-D
Posted by biggles604 at 09:49 AM on 10-09-2009
The hardware thing got me thinking. For the price of the fork, why would hardware be an issue at all. Make all the screws titanium and be done with it, the cost difference to the bottom line at over $3k should be negligible, and it will also add some (meaningful) marketting power.
As for the different screw sizes; It's just lazy design as far as I'm concerned. Every screw has different torque settings, but you can modify the design, or get screws of M5 or M6 size with a 5mm allen head. One tool to do remove the wheel should be a design requirement.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by DrewM
(Post 2250378)
Defending a long time, well recognized Manitou issue (soft, crappy hardware)is hardly the way to rebut a review of their latest offering.
Pseudo-engineering banter aside I wish every bolt on my bike had a 4mm OR 5mm head. I could ditch my multi tool and carry one allen wrench. Beautiful. Any company that helps me get there gets my vote. If 4mm is better then make all the bolts 4mm... just pick one. |
As for the different screw sizes; It's just lazy design as far as I'm concerned. Every screw has different torque settings, but you can modify the design, or get screws of M5 or M6 size with a 5mm allen head. One tool to do remove the wheel should be a design requirement.
Posted by Robot at 09:50 AM on 10-09-2009
don't mess with drew's voice of reason!
product qualities aside, i'd rather read ten reviews like this than any of the 4.5 star writeups that used to plague this site.
don't mess with drew's voice of reason!
product qualities aside, i'd rather read ten reviews like this than any of the 4.5 star writeups that used to plague this site.
Posted by FullMonty at 10:01 AM on 10-09-2009
888s still have pinch bolts, Fox 40 has pinch bolts and RS's Maxle DH is nice but probably doesn't save any real time over pinch bolts and thread-in axle.
frankly, if the axle requires a larger wrench I'm ok with that. the countless number of mangled axles I've seen even with 6mm tooling would mean lots more stripped out crap to deal with if they reduced the size.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by roy
(Post 2250371)
when everyone else has some form of quick release, I'd say manitou really should follow suit.
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frankly, if the axle requires a larger wrench I'm ok with that. the countless number of mangled axles I've seen even with 6mm tooling would mean lots more stripped out crap to deal with if they reduced the size.
Posted by connor at 10:06 AM on 10-09-2009
well not everything is made by Special ed.
Posted via Mobile Device
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Robot
(Post 2250402)
don't mess with drew's voice of reason!
product qualities aside, i'd rather read ten reviews like this than any of the 4.5 star writeups that used to plague this site. |
Posted via Mobile Device
Posted by Wayne P at 10:50 AM on 10-09-2009
:lol: Wayne P thinks that is too funny! Raiden, what else does Zac think?
Regarding the sanding the axle thingy..... remember the first and second generation Boxxers? The 6" and 7" ones? Who remembers trying to get that axle in and out? A bloody nightmare unless of course you took some sandpaper to it.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by DrewM
(Post 2250378)
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Regarding the sanding the axle thingy..... remember the first and second generation Boxxers? The 6" and 7" ones? Who remembers trying to get that axle in and out? A bloody nightmare unless of course you took some sandpaper to it.
Posted by Sludge Bomber at 11:24 AM on 10-09-2009
As an official member of the "Number 1 Haters Club - AMERICA SECT"; I personally would like to congratulate all the haters on the site. WOW! This thread is oozing with hate. I mean, it's literally pouring out...I only caught a wiff of this in America and was drawn to this thread; particularly by those that felt educated with the author's new methodology of hate.
Additionally, kudos to those who took the hate from within and formed some logical basis around that particular hate. YOWSERS!
Keep the hate plentiful and oozing in America's lumberyard.
PEACE OUT!
As an official member of the "Number 1 Haters Club - AMERICA SECT"; I personally would like to congratulate all the haters on the site. WOW! This thread is oozing with hate. I mean, it's literally pouring out...I only caught a wiff of this in America and was drawn to this thread; particularly by those that felt educated with the author's new methodology of hate.
Additionally, kudos to those who took the hate from within and formed some logical basis around that particular hate. YOWSERS!
Keep the hate plentiful and oozing in America's lumberyard.
PEACE OUT!
Posted by Sideshow at 11:58 AM on 10-09-2009
3rd person George. He's the best!
" george doesn't like this "
3rd person George. He's the best!
" george doesn't like this "
Posted by Hack On Wheels at 12:55 PM on 10-09-2009
For whatever its worth, I'd much rather have the pinchbolt system used on the Dorado than the Maxle on my Boxxer. Then again, I'm also the type of person who actually carries a pack everywhere and has a decent set of tools in there, so the different sized hex keys are a non-issue. Further, I've never had an issue with "softness" of the Manitou pinchbolts, and I've got quite a few Manitou forks in my garage; the only issue was one bolt being severely over-torqued by a shop's mechanic. Apart from the 20mm QR on my Fox (which is great by the way), I'm used to using multiple sizes of hex keys on Manitou, Marz, etc. Then again, I also can't stand the newish (08 ) Marz 20mm QR.
To me the review read like this:
-great performance
-fork released like teething issues (Manitou missed their chance to show up RS and Marz)
-a few too many minor annoyances for the cost
Here's to hoping that in a year or two the price will have dropped a bunch and those issues will be sorted.
For whatever its worth, I'd much rather have the pinchbolt system used on the Dorado than the Maxle on my Boxxer. Then again, I'm also the type of person who actually carries a pack everywhere and has a decent set of tools in there, so the different sized hex keys are a non-issue. Further, I've never had an issue with "softness" of the Manitou pinchbolts, and I've got quite a few Manitou forks in my garage; the only issue was one bolt being severely over-torqued by a shop's mechanic. Apart from the 20mm QR on my Fox (which is great by the way), I'm used to using multiple sizes of hex keys on Manitou, Marz, etc. Then again, I also can't stand the newish (08 ) Marz 20mm QR.
To me the review read like this:
-great performance
-fork released like teething issues (Manitou missed their chance to show up RS and Marz)
-a few too many minor annoyances for the cost
Here's to hoping that in a year or two the price will have dropped a bunch and those issues will be sorted.
Posted by DaveM at 01:05 PM on 10-09-2009
what price should have been posted?
the average "bro" price?
All reviews I've ever read state the msrp of the product. No other price can be backed up.
That being said, how many Dorados were actually sold to consumers in Canada in 2009? (not pro dealed to sponsored riders) 10? 20? 50? I'd be suprised if the number was higher.
Every fork has it's first year production issues, but Fox, Marz and Rockshox are producing thousands. To see that many issues in a low production items doesn't speak much about the quality control, which seems to be a consistent issue with Manitou. Geez for a year or so it didn't make sense to ride a new Manitou fork before taking it to James Downing first.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Raiden
(Post 2249099)
It's rediculous because it's wrong. 3900 is just the price listed in the catalogue so shops can find their keystone cost. No one sold a Canadian Dorado for 3900. They went for closer to a 40.
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the average "bro" price?
All reviews I've ever read state the msrp of the product. No other price can be backed up.
That being said, how many Dorados were actually sold to consumers in Canada in 2009? (not pro dealed to sponsored riders) 10? 20? 50? I'd be suprised if the number was higher.
Every fork has it's first year production issues, but Fox, Marz and Rockshox are producing thousands. To see that many issues in a low production items doesn't speak much about the quality control, which seems to be a consistent issue with Manitou. Geez for a year or so it didn't make sense to ride a new Manitou fork before taking it to James Downing first.
Posted by scriz at 01:47 PM on 10-09-2009
Yes, you got me... I work for Manitou! In fact, I run the bolt-ordering dept. Sorry for spec'ing the "soft-steel" bolts again. I have been really distracted by all these internet forums and I guess I forgot to check the "hard-steel" box.
Also, based on this review Manitou is now considering a factory "pre-sanded" axle option as part of the MRD program. Instead of the gun-case, these limited edition forks will come with a pair of pre-sanded designer jeans with an embroidered MRD logo on the back pocket. BTW, Does anyone know the best grade sandpaper to use on aluminum bits?
The Pinkbike review is favourable, and if you read past the first page fold it has a lot more info on the internals, seals, etc. PB claims to have used the fork for three months and did not have a single problem as far as I can tell. So, is PB paid-off by Manitou? Did this reviewer get a lemon?
I am aware that reviews are often nothing more than re-packaged marketing brochures, but I did not find the PB review to be that way. Here's a quote from the conclusion:
"At a much greater price than some of the competition, as well as a much flashier appearance, I almost wanted it to not live up to the expectations. That is obviously not the case. As much as I would like to find fault with the Dorado, speaking strictly about the fork's performance, I simply can't."
Yes, you got me... I work for Manitou! In fact, I run the bolt-ordering dept. Sorry for spec'ing the "soft-steel" bolts again. I have been really distracted by all these internet forums and I guess I forgot to check the "hard-steel" box.
Also, based on this review Manitou is now considering a factory "pre-sanded" axle option as part of the MRD program. Instead of the gun-case, these limited edition forks will come with a pair of pre-sanded designer jeans with an embroidered MRD logo on the back pocket. BTW, Does anyone know the best grade sandpaper to use on aluminum bits?
The Pinkbike review is favourable, and if you read past the first page fold it has a lot more info on the internals, seals, etc. PB claims to have used the fork for three months and did not have a single problem as far as I can tell. So, is PB paid-off by Manitou? Did this reviewer get a lemon?
I am aware that reviews are often nothing more than re-packaged marketing brochures, but I did not find the PB review to be that way. Here's a quote from the conclusion:
"At a much greater price than some of the competition, as well as a much flashier appearance, I almost wanted it to not live up to the expectations. That is obviously not the case. As much as I would like to find fault with the Dorado, speaking strictly about the fork's performance, I simply can't."
Quote:
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Originally Posted by DrewM
(Post 2250378)
Great review Arthur.
I think you could have been a lot less polite and balanced and still presented a honest assessment. I do not usually consider myself a conspiracy theorist but I do find myself wondering how many of the new one-post-wonders work for Manitou? For example: Third-Person-Zac from Trident: http://bb.nsmb.com/member.php?u=37106 Defending a long time, well recognized Manitou issue (soft, crappy hardware)is hardly the way to rebut a review of their latest offering. Pseudo-engineering banter aside I wish every bolt on my bike had a 4mm OR 5mm head. I could ditch my multi tool and carry one allen wrench. Beautiful. Any company that helps me get there gets my vote. If 4mm is better then make all the bolts 4mm... just pick one. Pinkbike-Mike's review was well written but "performance" seems to take a backseat to how pretty the carbon looks and the excitement of the fork sporting an MRD sticker. Maybe you meant: "For a more *favourable* review" ??? -D |
Posted by crohnsy at 10:18 PM on 10-10-2009
Well thankfully scriz, the manager of the bolt ordering department, was diligently following this thread.
A couple questions Scriz, how long before the sanded axle upgrade will be available to the consumer? Can we purchase it as an upgrade? How much weight is saved?
Is jean size one size fits all? the tighter the better imo.
I read in the pinkbike ad that the dorado had a really thick sticker kit. Is there any chance in the future Manitou will make a FRO lightweight sticker kit?
;)
Well thankfully scriz, the manager of the bolt ordering department, was diligently following this thread.
A couple questions Scriz, how long before the sanded axle upgrade will be available to the consumer? Can we purchase it as an upgrade? How much weight is saved?
Is jean size one size fits all? the tighter the better imo.
I read in the pinkbike ad that the dorado had a really thick sticker kit. Is there any chance in the future Manitou will make a FRO lightweight sticker kit?
;)
Posted by toy4-jay at 11:37 PM on 10-11-2009
http://saydrah.files.wordpress.com/2...dramallama.jpg
That being said, I read the NSMB and Pinkbike reviews and have this to say: I'm pretty sure they were riding different forks. Or that's what it seemed like.
PS. Someone should tell Pinkbike to give their graphs some numbers on the y-axis. Useless otherwise!
http://saydrah.files.wordpress.com/2...dramallama.jpg
That being said, I read the NSMB and Pinkbike reviews and have this to say: I'm pretty sure they were riding different forks. Or that's what it seemed like.
PS. Someone should tell Pinkbike to give their graphs some numbers on the y-axis. Useless otherwise!
Posted by Mic at 09:24 AM on 10-12-2009
Before I post my thoughts there are some points that need consideration:
1. I am a guy who rides mostly on weekends.
2. I have never seriously ridden DH.
3. I would not spend that much cash on a fork, but then again, I am not part of the target group.
BUT....designers, be it industrial, etc., earn their money by figuring things out, right?
So why would they use soft head screws?
Before I post my thoughts there are some points that need consideration:
1. I am a guy who rides mostly on weekends.
2. I have never seriously ridden DH.
3. I would not spend that much cash on a fork, but then again, I am not part of the target group.
BUT....designers, be it industrial, etc., earn their money by figuring things out, right?
So why would they use soft head screws?
Posted by Jeff2 at 10:47 PM on 10-15-2009
Disclaimer: While I'm not a troll, my comments may be taken as such.
I don't see how you guy's instantly proclaim this review as "honest" and go on to thank him for a great review just because he focus's most of the "test" on a few of the negatives that he found with the Dorado. Seriously guys, I mean no disrespect, but just because a review is negative does not mean it is any more honest and truthful than another. Really, does no one see a tiny itsy bitsy conflict of interest with Arthur reviewing this fork?! Sort of along the same lines as James posting in the discussion about the Dorado. I'm not trying to stir the pot, just making some observations about what I see.
I've met Arthur and he is a very nice guy, but in my humble opinion this really does not cut it as a test. The large majority of the review is spent talking about bolt heads, stanchion guards, cosmetic wear, and hose guides. All issues that should be mentioned no doubt, but I want to know how the fork compares to top-end models from other manufacturers during actual riding. Does it blow through its travel? Did it not use enough of it? Do the adjustments make sense? Granted there was a few sentences in there, but not enough. After re-reading it a few times I stumbled upon this: "The Dorado performs sometimes better than competitor
Disclaimer: While I'm not a troll, my comments may be taken as such.
I don't see how you guy's instantly proclaim this review as "honest" and go on to thank him for a great review just because he focus's most of the "test" on a few of the negatives that he found with the Dorado. Seriously guys, I mean no disrespect, but just because a review is negative does not mean it is any more honest and truthful than another. Really, does no one see a tiny itsy bitsy conflict of interest with Arthur reviewing this fork?! Sort of along the same lines as James posting in the discussion about the Dorado. I'm not trying to stir the pot, just making some observations about what I see.
I've met Arthur and he is a very nice guy, but in my humble opinion this really does not cut it as a test. The large majority of the review is spent talking about bolt heads, stanchion guards, cosmetic wear, and hose guides. All issues that should be mentioned no doubt, but I want to know how the fork compares to top-end models from other manufacturers during actual riding. Does it blow through its travel? Did it not use enough of it? Do the adjustments make sense? Granted there was a few sentences in there, but not enough. After re-reading it a few times I stumbled upon this: "The Dorado performs sometimes better than competitor
Posted by cam@nsmb.com at 03:07 PM on 10-20-2009
This post above was just approved so I thought I should post to indicate that there was an addition.
Sorry for the delay Jeff2 (aka notatroll ;) )
This post above was just approved so I thought I should post to indicate that there was an addition.
Sorry for the delay Jeff2 (aka notatroll ;) )
Posted by roy at 03:26 PM on 10-20-2009
While the review might have been nit picking, this fork was hyped to be the best fork in the world. If i'd paid money for it, i'd be pretty pissed that its not 100% right and just maybe that is important when there are already other forks on the market for much less that don't have the same issues.
I read it as the performance was not far enough beyond what is currently available based on Arthur's experience that it justified a long rambling bunch of paragraphs.
ps. whats with the guest posts, create an account so we can neg rep you!
While the review might have been nit picking, this fork was hyped to be the best fork in the world. If i'd paid money for it, i'd be pretty pissed that its not 100% right and just maybe that is important when there are already other forks on the market for much less that don't have the same issues.
I read it as the performance was not far enough beyond what is currently available based on Arthur's experience that it justified a long rambling bunch of paragraphs.
ps. whats with the guest posts, create an account so we can neg rep you!
Posted by J-Kwon at 03:31 PM on 10-20-2009
aluminum dorado ftw.
buy used
get it rebuilt by james
get coil-spring
get ti-bolts
win.
looking forward to it, it can't be worse than a totem's production run right(which has been great for me).
ps- Jeff2 does bring up a valid point, the review didn't discuss how the fork felt in specific detail, and how the compression range/each click compares to its competitior in huge detail.
aluminum dorado ftw.
buy used
get it rebuilt by james
get coil-spring
get ti-bolts
win.
looking forward to it, it can't be worse than a totem's production run right(which has been great for me).
ps- Jeff2 does bring up a valid point, the review didn't discuss how the fork felt in specific detail, and how the compression range/each click compares to its competitior in huge detail.
Posted by Feral at 03:49 PM on 10-20-2009
Pinkbike fanboy club rules probably say that they can't belong to any other forums.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by roy
(Post 2256890)
ps. whats with the guest posts, create an account so we can neg rep you! |
Posted by buddylee at 04:30 PM on 10-20-2009
I don't really see a conflict of interest as Arthur is not sponsored and does not work in the Bike Industry anymore.I do however own a business in the industry but am not affiliated with any one manufacturer but work with many.I also used to work for Manitou and be one of Manitou's biggest supporters. I was hoping they were going to get it together after the buy out by HB but this New Dorado is still plagued by old issues.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Jeff2
(Post 2254138)
Disclaimer: While I'm not a troll, my comments may be taken as such.
I don't see how you guy's instantly proclaim this review as "honest" and go on to thank him for a great review just because he focus's most of the "test" on a few of the negatives that he found with the Dorado. Seriously guys, I mean no disrespect, but just because a review is negative does not mean it is any more honest and truthful than another. Really, does no one see a tiny itsy bitsy conflict of interest with Arthur reviewing this fork?! Sort of along the same lines as James posting in the discussion about the Dorado. I'm not trying to stir the pot, just making some observations about what I see. I've met Arthur and he is a very nice guy, but in my humble opinion this really does not cut it as a test. The large majority of the review is spent talking about bolt heads, stanchion guards, cosmetic wear, and hose guides. All issues that should be mentioned no doubt, but I want to know how the fork compares to top-end models from other manufacturers during actual riding. Does it blow through its travel? Did it not use enough of it? Do the adjustments make sense? Granted there was a few sentences in there, but not enough. After re-reading it a few times I stumbled upon this: "The Dorado performs sometimes better than competitor |
Posted by Wayne P at 04:54 PM on 10-20-2009
Hi James.
Hi James.
Posted by Vegas Baby! at 11:10 AM on 10-23-2009
i should make you drink my urine for that last comment.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Sludge Bomber
(Post 2250489)
As an official member of the "Number 1 Haters Club - AMERICA SECT"; I personally would like to congratulate all the haters on the site. WOW! This thread is oozing with hate. I mean, it's literally pouring out...I only caught a wiff of this in America and was drawn to this thread; particularly by those that felt educated with the author's new methodology of hate.
Additionally, kudos to those who took the hate from within and formed some logical basis around that particular hate. YOWSERS! Keep the hate plentiful and oozing in America's lumberyard. PEACE! |
Posted by Bryce at 12:11 PM on 10-23-2009
^^^ he'd be stoked, in 'merica they call that "beer"
^^^ he'd be stoked, in 'merica they call that "beer"
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