EDITORIAL
Thank You For Knowing Not To Drink Battery Acid
Disclaimer: This piece is in no way intended as an attack on Wolf Tooth Components. I appreciate many of their high quality USA Made bicycle products including tools, lube, and drivetrain parts. Also, they are in no way alone in the bicycle world in having to go to lengths to try to protect people from themselves.
Measure Twice, Order Once
The other day I was thinking about this meme I saw about ownership manuals for cars. It said something along the lines of "car owners manuals used to show you how to adjust the valves and now they tell you not to drink the contents of the battery." The whole idea being that people back in the day were more capable of performing this mythical level of thought processing called 'common sense' as well as generally being more capable of basic mechanical tasks. Never mind that my wireless speaker has more components than an entire 1960s VW Bus.
I think folks deserve a bit of a break from trying to be experts on everything in our increasingly complicated world, but there's still a big difference between knowing how to use a laptop to fine tune a sports car and understanding not to pour beer in the hopper labelled "DOT Fluid Only." What got me on to this line of thinking in the first place was a press release for a new Wolf Tooth product that included some copy that I almost felt was throwing shade on members of the cycling community.
This press release was for their new lockrings for Center Lock rotors, which come in a variety of anodized colours, including anodized purple. And I do love anything bicycle-related that comes in anodized purple, however I'm not a fan of the Center Lock mounting standard so normally that's the kind of information that I'd pop straight into the circular file.
What specifically caught my eye were the three bullet points that Wolf Tooth attached to the product release:
- Can be installed with Wolf Tooth Pack Wrench. Which, I mean, okay. It's just a standard 16-notch 44mm bottom bracket tool. There are a hundred different options out there but Wolf Tooth does make a nice one and it's always nice to circle back and pump your own catalogue. Their tool does, of course, work with every other brands' Center Lock lockring as well. Heck, I guess props are in order for not inventing a new tool interface here!
2. Torque to 40nm. This is the standard for the Center Lock interface. Well, Shimano says 40-50nm, which is quite a range. And it's also laser-etched right on the lockring itself. And, I've never actually seen anyone use a torque wrench for the application. It's 350 to 435 in/lbs so just get on it.
3. Not compatible with six-bolt rotors and hubs. Yes. For real.
Center Lock lockring. Made in Minnesota, USA. Comes in 8 colours. Photo: Wolf Tooth
Installed with any 16-notch 44mm BB tool. Photo: Wolf Tooth
Yes, SRAM makes Center Lock rotors too. Who doesn't? Photo: Wolf Tooth
There was a time when, as someone regularly labeled an elitist mountain bike nerd, I would have assumed that anodized rotor lockrings were the strict purview of enthusiasts of this activity. I mean spending 16 USD | 21 CAD per wheel for colourful precision-machined widgets is sort of 'our' thing right? Okay, maybe only a moderate percentage of riders would have the tools and inclination to swap out their own Center Lock rotors, or lockrings, but at the very least they wouldn't be going into a shop, or online, to order a big aluminum ring to replace the six little bolts holding their rotors on? Who is this warning even for‽
Now, Cam actually punctured my bubble a little bit some time ago when he signed up for a brand-specific owner group on social media. As memory serves, it was part of a quest to embed himself in the non-NSMB mountain bike community to get a feel for types of content we could consider adding. I'm not mentioning the company since, as far as I know, their customer base is no more or less 'core' than any other, but suffice it to say they're a premium brand that sells carbon fiber bikes.
One of the first posts he came across was the owner of one of said premium full suspension rigs wondering how many kilometers the bike was good for before they should purchase a new one. Note, that's not before they should take it for a tune up, or bleed the brakes, or service the suspension, but rather someone who spent 1/6 or more of the average Canadian's pre-tax income on a full-suspension mountain bike while thinking it has an expiry date. Like buying milk. But that's clearly not representative of most folks dropping used car money, good used car money even, on these toys we ride in the forest. Any neophyte riders on the most basic used mountain bikes that I've ever met have had a more basic understanding of the simple beauty of a bicycle than that.
Thank you for reading and engaging with articles about chain lubing. And all the other non battery-acid-drinking things you do.
I regularly try and repair stuff outside of my wheelhouse, sometimes with less than stellar results, and believe that the burden should be on the individual to do some research before ordering the parts, and also to pull the plug and pay an expert when they're in over their head. And, it might make me a horrible gatekeeper of this activity, but I don't think Wolf Tooth should have to have a bullet saying Center Lock and 6-Bolt aren't the same thing, and that there should be no refunds for anyone that orders a Center Lock lockring for their 6-bolt hub. I also think there are many places that a novice mountain bicyclist could confirm that information including the myriad of bike shops with a Wolf Tooth account who'd love to split the margin with the Minnesota manufacturer to get folks sorted with the right product.
And, I hope you don't let it go to your head too much if I take a moment to to say thank you for knowing not to drink battery acid. It wouldn't be a great online community without you. It's so enjoyable sharing everyone's mountain biking experiences from the crustiest to the freshest, from the person who hasn't been able to ride lately to the person who's on their bikes seven days a week. I felt very thankful, in that moment, reading the Wolf Tooth press release, that the majority of mountain bikers, even if totally unaware that there is more than one way to mount a brake rotor, before ordering shiny things from Wolf Tooth or elsewhere, would look at a Center Lock and a 6-Bolt rotor interface and realize that they are not the same thing.
Comments
Vik Banerjee
2 years, 1 month ago
One of the side effects of all the compatibility standards at play with bikes is that once I find a setup of parts that meets my cost/performance/ease of supply needs I just keep buying the same parts. I know they'll work with each other and what I already have.
Sometimes I get intrigued by something new [to me], but the potential hassles involved mean that I usually resist the temptation until supply issues and/or a deep discount forces my hand a bit. I am currently running a set of older XT 2-piston brakes that I don't love, but having sorted out the dropper lever/shifter + brake lever compatibility I'm not excited about getting some new brakes [probably Shimano Deore 4-piston] and figuring out how to attach the controls.
The problem with all the "don't drink battery acid" user info is that the people that read that stuff don't need to be told that and the people getting thirsty and pouring themselves a DOT5 margarita in the garage aren't going to read the fine print. The US military did a comprehensive study around how much of the general population could be used effectively in the military. The upshot was ~15% of the general population couldn't be used to do anything [peel potatoes, dig trenches, shoot in the general direction of the enemy, etc...] and end up doing more good than the problems they'd cause and the intensity of supervision they'd need. The folks just above these useless folks were almost useless or barely useful. So the % of the general population that is likely to do something stupid is shockingly high. I don't think IQ distribution has changed in our lifetimes. It's just how we deal with these folks...ignore them because they are morons or try and head off some of the worst problems by flutily adding warnings to the fine print.
As others have noted COVID has really laidbare the range of abilities in the population to process information and act appropriately.
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Timer
2 years, 1 month ago
A valid point. People have been quite capable of doing shockingly stupid stuff all throughout history. Possible even more so than today. While there were fewer silly warning labels, there were also more accidents. Often quite dangerous ones. If you look at historic records on causes of death, accidents of all kinds used to be much more common.
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Andrew Major
2 years, 1 month ago
Put another way… the person who is going to order a Center Lock lock ring for their 6-bolt hub is going to miss the bolded bullet point.
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yardrec
2 years, 1 month ago
💯!
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Andrew Collins
2 years, 1 month ago
But we're talking about the country that has the lowest COVID immunisation rate amongst the OECD despite inventing many of the vaccines.
Actually forget that Poindexter science shit just go and read mtbr forums to see my point.
FREEDUMB!
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Andrew Major
2 years, 1 month ago
I will only say, as elitist as it sounds, that this was intended first, and more specifically, as a thank you to the myriad of NSMB readers I interact with.
We can thoughtfully, or at least respectfully, disagree on the merits of six-bolt v. Center Lock (ugh!) but I feel even the, most welcome, neophytes to riding who find themselves here could look at six bolts and a lockring and know inherently that they’re different things.
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Rowdy
2 years, 1 month ago
So now we're politicizing and slamming your neighbors over lock rings? I'm pretty sure Wolf Tooth sells product in your country too but maybe your truckers are striking?
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Andrew Major
2 years, 1 month ago
I don’t think anyone should be throwing stones about Covid vaccination uptake, and I also think higher rates in some countries probably come down more to empathy than intelligence.
But I would like to say that most our products do get from place to place on trucks and those hardworking folks who’ve just been getting on with it deserve the respect of being acknowledged separately from any ‘convoy’ bullshit.
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Karl Fitzpatrick
2 years, 1 month ago
I think there's a bit of a chasm between the person who bought a very expensive bicycle thinking it has an expiry date and the newbie looking for the coolest tidbit with not the slightest clue that our chosen sport is awash with uncountable standards.
Maybe WolfTooth has heard someone ask the what the difference is enough times for them to think it pertinent to express the (bullet)point clearly.
I think we can count ourselves as ever so slightly elitist when we find ourselves writing (and reading (and commenting)) on a topic that might be scraping the barrel just a teensy bit.
Having Covid this last week has been shit but being injured must suck dogs balls.
Can't wait till you're back riding mate.
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TristanC
2 years, 1 month ago
I agree; it's easy to forget that anyone who reads this article is probably in the top 0.1% of bike nerds. I know there's a difference between Centerlock and 6-bolt, but does my downstairs neighbor who doesn't replace his own brake pads? Does my mom, who's been riding for 45 years? I doubt it. Do they need to? Nah, they can ask me. Or read the Wolf Tooth page.
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Timer
2 years, 1 month ago
True, but would your neighbour or your mom buy purple anodized centerlock lockrings on the aftermarket?
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Andrew Major
2 years, 1 month ago
But they’d ask right?
I just don’t think it’s a stretch to expect people to confirm, in general, that a widget fits their gadget before ordering.
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trailrange7
2 years, 1 month ago
I'm unsure of your work experience in the bike industry, but as someone who currently works in a customer service role, it's surprising how many people are willing to drop serious dosh ($300+) on something without fully checking compatibility. As such, I think that it makes sense that Wolftooth wants to put a semi-redundant little bullet point on their centre lock rotors.
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Straw
2 years, 1 month ago
Perhaps the buyer finds it convenient that they can research right there on the product page whether it will fit their gadget. Beats going to SheldonBrown and wading through pages and pages of bicycling minutia.
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Andrew Major
2 years, 1 month ago
Research what though? I’m very information forward and like brands that present their products that way - but as i said in the article, and I’m prepared to be the asshole here, I would not except people be on Wolf Tooth’s website trying to learn if Center Lock lock rings work with six-bolt hubs?!
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Skeen
2 years, 1 month ago
Dude, with all due respect to NSMB & Andrew, nothing beats going to Sheldon Brown!
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Andrew Major
2 years, 1 month ago
I 100% agree with this. Personally, I've had many a project start with Sheldon's gear calculator. Professionally, I've used his resource many times over the years. I think it's wonderful that his friends have kept the site going as a legacy.
Straw
2 years, 1 month ago
Arughh. I think I should have posted a Wolftooth-like note indicating that I meant nothing ill toward Sheldon, his legacy, or the information that I've valued and used on his pages.
Or, I could argue that if I'm mentioning Sheldon Brown here on this site, commenting about a gear article, I know the value of its contents? And that a qualifying note isn't necessary, since you should understand that?
You've proven here that the Wolftooth note is worthwhile.
My point is if you're looking for gear information as a newbie, and you stumble on Sheldon Brown, you're going to get lost pretty quickly. As a manufacturer it's better to risk the wrath of the ivory tower and post a one-liner regarding compatibility.
Karl Fitzpatrick
2 years, 1 month ago
I will take your mention of me being in the top 0.1% (of anything!) with a decent helping of sugar AND salt, good sir. 😅
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Velocipedestrian
2 years, 1 month ago
You might make up 50% of nsmb readers in Wellington in household covid isolation! We're an exclusive club.
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Andrew Major
2 years, 1 month ago
Ha, I wrote plenty of stuff that landed flat when I had two working legs too. I just write what comes to mind, though the worst of it does end up on my blog.
I can appreciate that there are many standards that look very similar but even then… ordering a 30.9 seat post when you need a 31.6 but you didn’t measure isn’t getting a pass here. Have you ever bought lightbulbs? Same basic process repeats itself in non-elitist bike nerd life.
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blackhat
2 years, 1 month ago
At a certain point, you just need to pay a shop. Unfortunately Wolf Tooth is just trying to avoid choosing between returns and dumb reviews by pissed off uneducated consumers.
Curiously, the number one thing bike companies are doing to keep LBS afloat is constantly changing standards. It’ll be interesting to see if D2C brands eventually make simple, easier to work on bikes a core part of their pitch or not.
Whether that’s a good thing or not is another matter. After all, I’m talking to the guy who loves press fit headsets and hates press fit bottom brackets, so who’s to say what direction it should all go?
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Andrew Major
2 years, 1 month ago
To be fair (tooo be faiiiiiiiir) I don’t generally not like the idea of pressfit bottom brackets, I dislike the real life standards/applications. 24mm spindle in PF92 shell with actually good tolerances? Sure.
I think for carbon frames pressfit actually makes more sense in theory than gluing in an aluminum shell.
But 30 spindle inside PF92? The BB bearing lives are depressing.
PF30 shells take up a lot of real estate but at least they fit proper bearings. Endless creaking issues though that I’ve never seen with headsets even on the cheapest rigs.
…
I have enough real life experience to suggest that the industries return to BSA threaded shells for everything is a great thing.
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Briain
2 years, 1 month ago
Upvote just for the letterkenny reference
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Andrew Major
2 years, 1 month ago
Hahahaha. Letterkenny clips are my guilty pleasure when I need a few minutes break while working. Also, if I'm having a down moment, no matter how many times I watch it, the female hockey players chirping each other kills me.
Mammal
2 years, 1 month ago
Favorite Canadian show of all time.
Lynx .
2 years, 1 month ago
Sorry, but I'm going to have to go with Andrew here, the amount of bikes I've worked on over the years, I can't count the amount having a creak that's been the headset, on the other hand, the amount that it was a PF BB, I don't have enough digits to count that. BSA is just so damn easy, a monkey could work on them :-)
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blackhat
2 years, 1 month ago
I don’t disagree with you there. I’m not the biggest fan of SRAM, but I appreciate that they never put their name to a PF92 to BB30 bearing.
I wasn’t trying to say you’re wrong really. Just pointing out that sometimes it’s hard to predict the consequences of industry trends or design decisions.
My personal opinion is that press-fit exposes manufacturing flaws that would otherwise be masked. When a company fails to hold appropriate tolerance, instead of just getting a molasses crank you also get a creak. But when made properly a PF interface can give significantly better bearing alignment than a threaded interface. Instead of complaining about pressfit I wish people would direct their ire to the companies taking QC shortcuts refusing to warranty defective products because they know most people don’t have the tools to prove it.
So yeah, I can see why we should get BSA for budget rigs. But the fact press fit can’t be executed reliably on frames costing multiple thousands is appalling.
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Andrew Major
2 years, 1 month ago
I want to agree with you except that DUB is basically 30mm. Close enough that it's still a garbage setup in a PF92 shell if folks really ride it. GXP wasn't great, no doubt, and I understand why SRAM wanted to tell just one axle story instead of two.
I think that, frankly, Race Face is the company doing it right here. They give riders the option to run 30mm aluminum spindles in PF92 shells because bigger is better but they also give riders the option to run a 24mm spindle in their PF92 shell as it should be. I also really appreciate that Race Face has used existing standards for all their tool interfaces - Shimano 44mm for their BSA 24mm BB (Shimano doesn't even use it), Zipp Vuma Quad for their BSA 30mm BB (the original), ISIS BB tool for CINCH.
I agree that higher QC/QA would be necessary for PF92/30 to really deliver what's promised but I wonder how much more garbage that would create in terms of frames being garbaged in the process?
kain0m
2 years, 1 month ago
I think that manufacturers have totally lost touch with their customer base.
On the one hand, they are selling a "message", a "lifestyle" with their products, to appeal to the ape-brain. They create pages upon pages of marketing blurb, shoot fancy videos, pay influencers to promote their product, etc.
On the other hand they ommit even the most basic specifications to a point where it is basically impossible to judge if the product suits you or not. Like I recently looked into cargo bikes. You'd be amazed how hard it is to find information about size and weight of those things. You'll know it's perfect for your modern, urban lifestyle, and that the grips are made out of 93% recycled rubber, but you won't know if it fits in your shed.
And the third dimension is the legalese. The "don't microwave your cat" kind of BS, that is just there to cover their a**es from any possible attempt at litigation. To the point that no-one ever reads the information, because we all know Tide pods aren't snacks - so even the last bit of potentially helpful information has been diluted into uselessnes.
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kcy4130
2 years, 1 month ago
Yep, lawsuit happy culture. Some of the warnings products are completely ridiculous, and even more ridiculous is that many of the warnings are probably there from a specific lawsuit. I recently learned that the stickers on fruit at grocery stores are made to be edible... I mean it makes sense, but goddam, it's such a sad commentary on humanity.
Edit: actually maybe it's not that sad that fruit stickers are edible, because any produce that isn't sold before it starts to go bad is sold/given too local farmers/ranchers for livestock. It'd be unrealistic to expect a hog farmer to peel a hundred stickers off half brown bananas. Faith in humanity not entirely lost.
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Pete Roggeman
2 years, 1 month ago
That was a great example of a sober second thought.
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kcy4130
2 years, 1 month ago
Sobering up did take quite some time. Battery acid is strong stuff!
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Andrew Major
2 years, 1 month ago
Also, for food waste recycling. I understand the pre-biodegradable stickers were an issue for the places turning scraps into fertilizer.
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Andrew Major
2 years, 1 month ago
While also a nerd who hates it when I have to dig for a seat post dimension from a bike company (who all know there are a bazillion) I can give a bit of a pass when they’re really trying to sell car-substitutes to recreational-cyclists (folks who’ve never thought about how rotors attach to hubs and some of whom will wear those rotors down until they snap and then be really mad about it - service, what?).
I would have assumed none of those people are buying fancy coloured lock rings directly from what certainly qualifies in my mind as a nerd brand? I mean, Camo rings, EnCase tools, Ti Morse cages… Wolf Tooth is pretty nerd+.
Also, I’m clearly not talking about riders who may come across something like these lockrings in the internet and ask at the local shop - or on the NSMB forum! - about compatibility. I’ve had to ask all kinds of ‘simple’ questions about my car, or fixing appliances, or lately about healing an Achilles and have always been rewarded with knowledge for my efforts. Know what you don’t know.
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Flatted-again
2 years, 1 month ago
Tangentially regarding seatpost dimensions, any idea why Banshee went from 31.6 to 30.9 in the latest Titan update? I’m a tad disappointed about that
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Skeen
2 years, 1 month ago
One guess is supply chain issues since I don’t know of any other recent frame updates. Frame tubing availability issue seems more likely than dropper post sizes as I’m guessing it would be a lot easier to change brand of dropper post than the 7075 tubing they use.
Why you are disappointed with change from 31.6 to 30.9? Personal compatibility with other bikes? From what i have read, durability doesn’t improve until 34.9 allows for increased size of internals; 31.6 and 30.9 use same internals so durability is the same. But if this is not correct or universal for all options I would like to know more.
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Flatted-again
2 years, 1 month ago
That's a good idea about the reason, and yeah, its personal - I like being able to move parts from frame to frame. I had thought that 30.9 was losing favor to 31.6 but I must be mistaken. I'm actually surprised that they use the same internals. I would have thought that if internal post diameters are the same, bushing sizes would have to differ, but is that not the case?
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Skeen
2 years, 1 month ago
I heard this on a podcast but can’t remember which one. So admittedly I don’t have a solid source but I remember trusting when i heard it so i would guess it was The Path podcast. In conclusion, I’m not 100% but pretty sure this is the case. And i hear ya regarding personal swapability. I have a 30.9 to 31.6 shim for this purpose but of course it only solves in 1 direction.
ShawMac
2 years, 1 month ago
I did see on a Banshee owners group the suggestion that it was to provide a thicker walled seat tube to reduce the risk of cracking, but I am sure that was purely speculation.
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Kos
2 years, 1 month ago
WT-1 is a fairly good evening sipping drink, but nothing beats Dumonde Lite for party time!
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Timer
2 years, 1 month ago
Being vegan, i only drink Bionol.
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Andrew Major
2 years, 1 month ago
Hahahahaha, thank you.
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mrbrett
2 years, 1 month ago
But, battery acid makes me feel warm inside.
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Andy Eunson
2 years, 1 month ago
What did Ralph Wiggums say in the Lord of the Flies parody? "These taste like burning"
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Mike Bergen
2 years, 1 month ago
Anyone still checking their 9V batteries with their tongues? Asking for a friend...
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a.funks
2 years, 1 month ago
Many pointless warnings but not much help with actual compatibility issues!
For instance, last week I realised that I need to switch my hardtail to shorter cranks because my ankle and knee don’t work right. I almost bought some DUB cranks thinking I’d just change the Hope BB GXP adaptor to the DUB BB adaptor. But silly me, I’d forgotten that DUB is a bigger axle so I need a whole new BB. But that’s a bad idea because I already have a nice Hope BB plus a spare in the same size from another bike - and 24mm BB bearings last longer than 30mm BB bearings so why make things worse?
I’d rather run a steel chainring because they last longer so then began the hunt for a 24mm axle 165mm crank that could fit a 30t steel ring - which would work happily as a singlespeed running 11 speed chains or work with Eagle 12 speed. Shimano SLX looked the way to go but then there seemed to be potential issues with chain and tooth profiles between Shimano and SRAM. More time wasted researching... I think it’ll work but the whole process was infuriating and stupidly overcomplicated and I’m a pretty technical person!
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fartymarty
2 years, 1 month ago
While we are sharing frustrations...
Until recently I was running Shimano I Spec B levers and 10 speed shifters (including modded left XT shifter as a dropper lever). I have just changed to Cura 2s and tried the Formula adapters to keep the bars nice and clean. I couldn't get on with the shifter position therefore switched to some 3D printed brackets from Ebay. These work well wrt position but I managed to crack both although they are still attached to the bars. So I thought I would try and find the same thing made of metal... It seems that no one makes them so I am going to try a few that seem close and do a little metal working to get them to fit. As a back up plan I have bought some more of the 3D printed ones from Ebay.
I quite like the XT 10 speed shifters and drive train (I can run a Zee mech and 11-42 cassette) and don't want to change it because of the shifter mounts. Why Shimano couldn't make said bracket, or not change shifter mounting standards every 5 minutes is beyond me.
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Andrew Collins
2 years, 1 month ago
From memory the Magura and Hope adapter's are interchangeable with the Formulas. One of those might work better for you. I also remember seeing an adapter on Thingiverse. If you can find it, there should be some places that 3d print sintered metal that you could get to do it for you.
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Dustin Meyer
2 years, 1 month ago
Yes, the Magura adapters do work with Cura levers. I actually used the Wolf Tooth Magura adapters for my dropper lever. I tried the same thing for a set of Dominions, but that did not work without some questionable modification on my part.
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Andrew Major
2 years, 1 month ago
Magura, Hope, Formula, and the two-bolt non-MatchMaker SRAM brakes
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papa44
2 years, 1 month ago
I run a short cage zee mech and 11-42 with hope levers and saint shifter. Took a while to get used to the enforced position of them using the ispec mounts but I like the clean way they mate up, I’m still surprised there isn’t more adjustment available by way different adapters though. Seems such a slept on standard
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fartymarty
2 years, 1 month ago
Andrew, Papa,
Thanks - I had a look at the Magura but it looked like it put the shifter in a similar position to the Formula. I'll have a look at the Hope one.
Edit - https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:2221629/files - looks like it's the one.
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Andrew Collins
2 years, 1 month ago
Yeah that looks like it. You might need a slicer program to check the distance between the screw holes and the OD of the screw holes.
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Andrew Collins
2 years, 1 month ago
This comment has been removed.
Andrew Collins
2 years, 1 month ago
Racface Affect R is your friend. 24mm spindle and there's a cinch direct mount 30t steel chainring from memory. There's a also the Wolftooth Camo spider system which has a steel chainring and works with the cinch system.
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Andrew Major
2 years, 1 month ago
No better example of the two-sides to steel in the bike world? Both hold a chain and last quite a while, ones stamped from slag and the other is precision manufactured from stainless steel.
I think the RaceFace wins a min-max off but the Camo rings do last a long, long, long time.
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TristanC
2 years, 1 month ago
FWIW, I've heard you can use Eagle chains on Shimano 12s chainrings and it works fine. Or Shimano 12s chains on any narrow-wide ring, if you use an Eagle quicklink. Supposedly. But I agree that it's a quagmire of conflicting "standards."
EDIT2: I say this because I spent a long while finding a 26t Shimano 12s chainring because I have baby legs, and I seriously considered trying the Eagle link/Shimano chain/Shimano cassette/Shimano derailleur combo. Turns out Garbaruk makes one though.
I would also look at Race Face Aeffect cranks, they come in 24mm spindle and will happily fit 30t rings; I have a 26t on mine.
EDIT: oops, took too long typing and Andrew beat me!
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Andrew Major
2 years, 1 month ago
I don’t like to debate inter-compatibility (what works for you works for you) but you do need to add a couple of notes when talking about Shimano HG+ inter-compatibility.
First, running Shimano 12spd drivetrains without the matching ring/chain/cassette you do not get any of the benefits of HG+ shifting under load or smoothness. So why bother?
Second, there’s are lots of accounts of excessive noise due to interface issues - which may come down to quick-links - and some of skipping and premature wear issues, so I’d add the disclaimer for anyone reading to experiment on your own dime/time but when your shop won’t assemble a concoction of 12-spend ShiRAMano don’t be a dick because you read on the internet it works for some people.
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Andrew Major
2 years, 1 month ago
I’ll toss out that NSMB forums are a great place to ask questions about stuff like this.
Andrew beat me to it, but the Aeffect R crankset is what you’re looking for… for Hope you should just need a different spacer for the non-drive side of your BB that’s 24mm ID instead of 22mm?
I’ve run them with both the Wolf Tooth Camp steel rings and the Race Face steel ring. Camo comes in Oval and I think it’s a beautiful design - the ring sits on posts on the spider - but the Race Face certainly gets the job done.
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Cr4w
2 years, 1 month ago
Every reader of this fine website probably does research like this a couple of times a year. It's kind of amazing actually.
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Karl Fitzpatrick
2 years, 1 month ago
This comment has been removed.
ShawMac
2 years, 1 month ago
I went through similar drama trying to find 165mm cranks with a 24mm spindle. I ended up ordering new RF Affect, but needed to buy a new cinch chainring because I was still running older 2x cranks with a narrow wide bolted on.
Edit: Late to the RaceFace party!
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Andrew Major
2 years, 1 month ago
Just a note that it's still possible to pick up a Cinch Spire which lets you run 4-bolt 104/64 on a Cinch crank. That's what I used on the Banshee Titan and on my SB104 BBR project.
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WheelNut
2 years, 1 month ago
I'd just like to sound off here (not that anyone cares): The tired trope of "common sense not being so common anymore" is one of the most inane thoughtless and pointless statements one could make. It serves no worthy purpose other than to say "I am smarter than all those other idiots." People are not more or less stupid than they have been in the past. That guy who was rolling a wooden cart down a dirt road in 1451 isn't any more or less likely to have an IQ equal to someone born in 2001.
Also, consider the fact that the person writing the warning on the Wolf Tooth product manual probably didn't spend hours deliberating about what warnings to put in the manual. They likely just typed the first things that came to mind and continued along with making the rest of the manual and then had a second coffee. There is almost certainly no big conspiracy against common sense. The person that wrote that manual is probably a bike nerd just like any of us. Writing product manuals isn't some elevated science. I've written lots of product manuals and it isn't the most exciting task.
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Raymond Epstein
2 years, 1 month ago
I used to think the human race was becoming collectively more stupid every year. This was a easy conclusion to reach with characters like Honey Boo Boo or Cash me outside girl flooding the media not to mention people eating Tide Pods. However, the truth is that simply the internet has provided a voice to the unsophisticated they never had so we hear and see them more than ever in human history. Battery acid...mmmmmmmmmmm!
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Andy Eunson
2 years, 1 month ago
I think I know which bike owners group Cam is referring to. But I’m sure many groups are the same. "Can I put a 20mm longer fork on my bike?" "No the geometry will be destroyed and you’ll void the warranty." "Oh look I have upgraded from silver aluminium pedals with pointy bits to purple pedals with pointy bits". "Look at my custom bike. I put different off the shelf brakes on it so that makes it custom. I have a rock chip in my paint, the frame is ruined. This should be a warranty. It’s worth following some of these sites for the posts and comments for the entertainment. But after a while one’s faith in humanity begins to suffer.
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Andrew Collins
2 years, 1 month ago
Oh I know, I know, I know! Yeti on MTBR.
Compare that group to the Transition, Turner or Banshee groups. This will tell you all you need to know about which brands to buy. Dave Turner please come back from cyclo-cross.
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Andy Eunson
2 years, 1 month ago
Not them. On Facebook. Initials are Santacruz.
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Karl Fitzpatrick
2 years, 1 month ago
I'm using that. So funny!
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Greg Bly
2 years, 1 month ago
I miss the lengthy warning stickers on forks telling me what not to do with the bike.
I have an older frame with a sticker that says ' for freeride use " love that sticker . Sucks I can't use the bike for XC .
You have to admit center lock is much easier to attach . I had center lock hubs . Purchased adaptors. Never had issues. And purple annodized carriers look dope !
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Andrew Major
2 years, 1 month ago
Center Lock is quicker/easier on and off, looks cleaner, and the anodized lock rings look great.
Six-bolt can be tightened anywhere with a T-25, there’s the redundancy of 6-bolts, and my expensive hubs don’t have an interface that can wear over time.
I know, I know, everyone with Center Lock has never had a rotor come loose on the trail, or any other issues, and regularly bolt checks their bike. Except for all the CL rotors coming through the shop when I was wrenching that were loose or not tight.
I’m an advocate for six-bolt but recognize it’s a losing battle as with me v. e~bikes.
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WheelNut
2 years, 1 month ago
As far as I can tell a center lock rotor would work just fine with no lock ring at all. There is no way for for it to come off as long as the axle remains in place and the caliper is still on the bike. Obviously with no lock ring it would be making all kinds of noise rattling around, but the chances of it not stopping you are pretty much nil.
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eriksg
2 years, 1 month ago
I believe the issue is less that it won't stop you when the lock ring comes loose that first time. The splines will transmit the braking force just fine. The issue is that any slop left unattended will wear away the centerlock interface to eventual failure, trashing your potentially expensive hubs in the process.
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Ryan Walters
2 years, 1 month ago
I personally have experienced CL rotors coming loose. I think it's worse if you tend to do a bit of "trials-y" moves in your riding, where you might be hopping and engaging brakes while rolling forwards and backwards to setup for a corner or a line. This seems to make it more likely that you'll loosen the thread. Even with loctite, mine still eventually worked their way loose. These were early examples - not sure if they've been improved, but I will never use CL again.
Andrew - didn't you recently have a CL interface catastrophically shear apart on your cargo bike??
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Andrew Major
2 years, 1 month ago
I’ve had a f***ing terrifying Shimano Center Lock failure on my cargo bike where the rotor mount sheered off while I was riding with my kid. Thankfully only flattish ground, not down Keith Rd.
This was due to a shitty hub design (Alfine CL disc) as opposed to the CL standard in general. It wouldn’t keep me from riding CL / make me afraid to ride CL with other hub designs.
In other words, I didn’t like CL before it happened and the incident doesn’t influence my preference for 6-bolt.
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Greg Bly
2 years, 1 month ago
That's a solid argument for six bolt rotors . I don't carry a tool to tighten center lock. All my bikes currently use six bolt some have sexy aluminum carriers in gold to match the accents on my Saint crank.
E bikes are awesome. On pavement. Silent meat power for the forest please.
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cheapondirt
2 years, 1 month ago
As soon as a brand buys ads on Facebook it needs to have disclaimers like this. In our interactions with other enthusiasts, it's easy to forget that most people in the world probably don't know what a dropper post is. That's a real example from a conversation I had this weekend, in which I tried to gently steer someone away from buying a kids ride shotgun seat for a 2005ish Norco Shore.
He's a smart guy too, runs a successful business, he's witty, and probably has his head on straighter than I do. Lack of esoteric knowledge =/= lack of common sense.
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Andrew Major
2 years, 1 month ago
I tried to see it you way and I just can’t get there, if you see a bicycle doudad online and order it for your bike without making sure it’s compatible that’s on you.
You don’t have to know there are multiple sizes of seat post to order a new dropper for your bike, but you have to know that you don’t know what size it is before ordering one. It’s like the guy trying to return lightbulbs because they’re the wrong size. You know they come in a hundred varieties and you have a sample to take with you.
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cheapondirt
2 years, 1 month ago
I don't disagree that the disclaimer should be unnecessary. But I would argue the problem is more closely related to consumer entitlement than ignorance.
People's sense of entitlement to make a mistake without it costing anything: that might be increasing, more so than common sense is decreasing. I'm not sure.
Anyway I think it's great how you address comments you disagree with; keeps us commenters accountable and the discourse is fun + valuable.
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Andrew Major
2 years, 1 month ago
I love the discussions in these threads and the way commenters hold me accountable and the way we expect each other to provide context for statements/opinions.
I don’t think it’s a stretch to say the NSMB comment section is a relatively rare oasis. It’s everyone’s job to welcome openly welcome new commenters to our discussions and to hold them accountable to our standard of community.
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Lynx .
2 years, 1 month ago
A very BIG and SAD issue these days, the entitlement of people. I listen to people, oh just order it, if you don't like it you can just return it, or the real scum, just order it for the weekend when you need it and return it, without even a thought that that is so morally wrong and corrupt.
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Velocipedestrian
2 years, 1 month ago
"People's sense of entitlement to make a mistake without it costing anything: that might be increasing, more so than common sense is decreasing. I'm not sure."
This sounds right. Silly mistakes used to come with a slice of humble pie, now they come with a sense of entitlement for someone else to fix it for them.
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Lynx .
2 years, 1 month ago
It's the caveman equivalent of telling someone not to go pull the tigers tail, better left unsaid and let the gene pool be better off for it.
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Ryan Walters
2 years, 1 month ago
If you need confirmation that the average mountain bike consumer does indeed need warnings like this, just spend a few weeks on various buy 'n sell platforms. People seem to have a lot more money than common sense.
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Andrew Major
2 years, 1 month ago
It’s not that I can’t easily imagine some ordering brake rotors that don’t fit their hubs… I mean, that I’ve seen plenty of times, but anodized center lock lockrings?! It’s a niche/nerd product.
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Mammal
2 years, 1 month ago
I got a sweet deal last year on a Reynolds carbon 27.5 front wheel for my hardtail that came with some sort of weight weenie 6-bolt hub. The hub has 6 studs that stick out of the hub to mate the rotor instead of screws, with each stud have been milled in half, allowing a centerlock-type ring to secure the rotor to the 6 half-studs. Very weird hybrid system (but lighter than 6 steel screws inside threads).
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Andrew Major
2 years, 1 month ago
I think you’ll find the 6-stud part pulls off the hub (when the lockring is removed) and will reveal a Center Lock interface underneath. All the Reynolds’s hubs I’ve see are Center Lock but ship with CL to 6-Bolt adapters like this (DT makes a similar adapter too).
The good news is whether you run the adapter or not, you can buy ano-purple lockrings for it!
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Mammal
2 years, 1 month ago
This is the way...
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Joseph Crabtree
2 years, 1 month ago
I just want to know how you accurately torque the lockring to 40nm with that tool, seems a 3/8 square interface would be a better way to go if I were to offer a tool and advise on torque specs.
BTW, most of my bikes have at least 1 Wolftooth component on it, just got their -2 headset that is a thing of beauty so not slamming their stuff.
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Andrew Major
2 years, 1 month ago
You don’t, that’s the point - it’s a huge range (40-50nm) and you just tighten the sh*t out of it like a cassette lockring. But not too much.
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trailrange7
2 years, 1 month ago
In a world dominated by free shipping and free returns, people get surprised and frustrated when things cannot be returned without an explicit explanation of why they were foolish to purchase it to begin with. I would imagine the bullet point is more so some nice CYA for wolf tooth to point to and say "see, you missed this, we can't accept these back".
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DMVancouver
2 years, 1 month ago
This comment has been removed.
leodevinci
2 years, 1 month ago
While the warning does seem stupid, these centre lock lockings that Wolf Tooth is selling look almost the exact same as a component that comes in the DT Swiss centre lock to 6 bolt conversion kits that you can buy here and also come with all DT Swiss centre lock hubs that I have ever bought. Obviously someone should be able to figure out that this piece Wolf Tooth is selling is not usable on 6 bolt rotors by itself but it does appear to be a piece that is the same as a piece that is integral in converting centre lock hubs to take 6 bolt rotors. I'm not actually sure the warning here is that outrageous.
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Andrew Major
2 years, 1 month ago
First, as listed in the piece above, the bullet point reads "Not compatible with six-bolt rotors and hubs" so I think, with that in mind, my premise stands up. As I said, it's hard to imagine someone can look at their 6-bolt hub and their 6x little M4 rotor bolts and think that this lockring would replace said bolts.
Second, those Center Lock to 6-Bolt rotor adapters - at least the ones I've used including DT Swiss and Reynolds - just use standard Center Lock lockrings, so actually, that is one application where the Wolf Tooth lockrings would probably work just fine with a 6-Bolt rotor (I haven't seen one in person to confirm that).
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leodevinci
2 years, 1 month ago
What Wolf Tooth is selling here is one part of a centre lock hub to six bolt rotor conversion kit. The DT Swiss ones use the exact same BB tool.
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